Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Testing the Effects of Break and DEF Debuffs

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Testing the Effects of Break and DEF Debuffs

    So, you're minding your own business, joining a Wicked Dragon run as a Mage. You use moves like Absorption, Mind Hack, Ether Eruption, Skewered, etc. and then you notice Break being done against the monsters like the Dullahans and Metus.
    You may be wondering - "What are Break's exact effects?"



    If you took a while to get the clear gem from Grauta Border Stage 4 - Stone and Rock, or ran Mobius a few times, there's this rocky critter:



    That's right. Titan Golem has high DEF and MDEF, so you'd deal 1s unless his defenses were shredded, or if he were inflicted with Break.

    But with his high defenses and neutral element, Titan Golem is the perfect test subject for Break testing. His defenses are significantly higher in Mobius than in the story quest.

    Since he takes 1s from the Basic Attack (when Break isn't applied), I removed every instance of Physical Testiment gear (with their derivatives in account too) from my build, tested how much damage I did with a non-Attack Stance Basic Attack with Break, and compared it to the -80% DEF debuff (If you had CPU friends who can use Lilith or do a 5-Dark Uni, while starting the Uni with Lilith yourself).

    Note - Disregard the timer. I did this over 2 quick runs, and during the first one, I was able to get the CPUs to use no buff Unisons and do a 5-Dark to shred Titan Golem's defenses. In the second run, I was only able to get more pics of Titan Golem getting hurt under Break since one of the CPUs decided to use a Light Valkyrie when I tried debuffing his DEF.



    First image looks like Toro's Plagued Mist hit the target, but actually, my Basic Attack hit first. Used Attack Stance at an earlier round, but it wore off when my attack landed (thanks to the wave transition time).





    Basic Attack damage after -80% DEF debuff is around the same range as the damage done during Break and no debuffs. Although Titan Golem's ability to inflict a -10% ATK debuff complicates things.


    And then a few more potshot hits:




    Left: Done during the first run. Still have the ATK debuff, but just to show the lower damage range of the Basic Attack versus a -80% DEF Titan Golem.
    Right: Basic Attack damage right above the Skewered double hit from a Mage. This was taken in my second run (before the Uni where a CPU ruined everything by throwing out Valk), so the timer is a bit off.



    In conclusion...

    - Break doesn't seem to be an AP booster or a %DEF/%MDEF reduction. Instead, it looks like it lets you ignore roughly 80% of an inflicted enemy's DEF/MDEF with an attack. If it did decrease DEF and MDEF, then a Soldier inflicted with Break would hit like a rolled up used napkin when using Divine Smash or Dual Sword, and Clerics would have their heals nerfed when under Break.

    - Titan Golem's -10% ATK debuff kinda complicates things, but the damage is still quite close.

    - Didn't get a pic of this, but Break's defense ignore bonus stacks with any DEF/MDEF debuffs.


    If anyone is interested in doing more testing, run Stone and Rock as a Lancer with absolutely no Physical Testiment skills equipped, take 4 Mage friends who don't have Physical ATK/AP buff monsters, Break Titan Golem first and do a few Basic Attacks, and then do a Dark Uni to shred his defenses.
    Another way to debuff his DEF to -80% is to use Lilith/Fenrir + Bestial Shout + Demoralize, as long as no one else does a buff Uni. (That thought didn't cross my mind when I was testing back then, so it's possible with 4 quest CPUs too if they don't throw out Firemins)

    Not sure if Break works the same way it does for players as it does for monsters, but one thing I know for sure is, Savage Sting always inflicts Break to whoever it hits, regardless if it gets a Heart of the Spear proc or not. This is due to how players have much lower Break Tolerance than monsters do.
    Last edited by LaconicLeaf; 05-01-2016, 11:55 PM.


    IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

    This Is How You DO Play Lancers

    #2
    A very informative and well written in-depth explanation in regards to the effects of break. +1

    Comment


      #3
      Nice, but remember to change up variables to make sure the answer stays exact with different test subjects.

      Comment


        #4
        Very useful topic here. Thank you for your time and effort .

        Comment


          #5
          Did some retesting on the same enemy since my stats have changed a bit compared to the original images. Had these skills equipped:

          Bestial Shout/Demoralize/Sting/S.Sting

          Both DEF debuff skills can be used to stack up to 8, but you'd only have that for about 20 seconds. With that, no Lilith/Fenrir Unison is really needed.

          But as a short sneak peek, a 4 stack DEF debuff is still weaker than Break + 0 stack DEF debuff.

          I'll upload the images later on today, and then also test it on the other stage bosses like Grandosaur and Armored Cyclops...


          IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

          This Is How You DO Play Lancers

          Comment


            #6
            As promised, here's my revisited trials for testing Break on Titan Golem, changing variables with DEF debuffs:

            -40% DEF + Stats

            Note: Keep in mind that these stats are used for all tests, even against the Armored Cyclops and Grandosaur



            -60% DEF




            -80% DEF



            Break, Break + Debuffs



            Had to compile the images to sneak past the 4 images per post cap, but yeah. Didn't think about using both Bestial Shout and Demoralize together before making this post, but I'll have the results for Armored Cyclops and Grandosaur in a bit.

            (Yes, the autophrases sound odd, especially with Maverick and Vincent after getting healed. I swear this was coincidence, as I didn't actually pick them up by autophrase!)
            Last edited by LaconicLeaf; 05-03-2016, 02:25 AM.


            IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

            This Is How You DO Play Lancers

            Comment


              #7
              Armored Cyclops


              No effects (unlike Titan Golem he takes more than 1 damage)





              -40% DEF





              -60% DEF





              -80% DEF






              (Left image has the Cyclops getting hurt for 11376 damage, Right image is probably just a high damage range hit)
              Last edited by LaconicLeaf; 05-03-2016, 02:26 AM.


              IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

              This Is How You DO Play Lancers

              Comment


                #8

                Break, Break + Debuffs





                Random Damage Generator makes the tests look weird, but my point stands. Grandosaur testing should be here soon (tm).

                (Didn't realize I hit the 4 image cap, so I had to continue the post here)


                IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

                This Is How You DO Play Lancers

                Comment


                  #9
                  Grandosaur


                  No effects





                  -40% DEF





                  -60% DEF





                  -80% DEF




                  IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

                  This Is How You DO Play Lancers

                  Comment


                    #10


                    Break






                    Reason why I had more pics of the -60% DEF debuff for Grandosaur is because he seems to have a lower DEF stat than the Armored Cyclops, which makes the 80% DEF debuff have diminishing returns. Either that or the Random Damage Generator kept on generating the higher range of damage for the 60% DEF debuff testing, which caused me to get more pics of Break hits.

                    And here's a Bonus Round with the Golem again...






                    Poses a question, actually; Do Critical Hits ignore a portion of the enemy's defense stats?

                    If it didn't, then that golem would've been hit for 2447 damage rather than shown above. (Or do critical hits add AP to your skill before the multiplier is factored in?)


                    IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

                    This Is How You DO Play Lancers

                    Comment


                    • LaconicLeaf
                      LaconicLeaf commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Melonze AP boost kinda makes sense, since if you use Devoted Strike (25 AP) while Defensive Stance is used (-25 AP damage given), you'll leave it at 0 AP, thus 1 damage would be dealt (unless P.Testiment procs happen). If it crits, it deals more than 1 point of damage.

                    • Ace
                      Ace commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Reo has already confirmed that a critical hit adds 50% of your raw AP damage scalar, independent of elemental boost.

                    • HotMessExpress
                      HotMessExpress commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Insomuch as higher AP attacks, in effect, ignore defense.... then yes, crits ignore defense. The way i read the damage calc, it's not exactly ignoring defense, but higher AP attacks will greatly help to overcome high defenses

                    #11
                    Originally posted by LaconicLeaf View Post

                    and Clerics would have their heals nerfed when under Break.
                    This isn't evidence, since buffs and debuffs on magic defense do not affect a cleric's heals. Only buffs and debuffs on magic attack will influence a cleric's heals. I do agree with your evidence about ignore using DS, though.
                    Last edited by Ace; 05-03-2016, 05:10 AM.
                    IGN: CS || Ace

                    Guilds:


                    COLOSSUS (Rank 1 for RGB5 and RB6)
                    E.X Slayer (Rank 1 for RGB7)

                    Comment


                    • HotMessExpress
                      HotMessExpress commented
                      Editing a comment
                      If the damage calcs for soldier work the same way, then break might be an actual defense debuff rather than a "special case on attacks" scenario. However, it's not an important distinction as long as the effect is still allowed to stack with the max 80% stat reduction

                    #12
                    good work. Mind messaging me your ID for something that rhymes with WINE to give you an add?
                    Nemurerumori / Sword / Fujin
                    Guild: COLOSSUS
                    Game ID: 2017106838
                    ----- ID: Slypheed
                    Password: 123456

                    Comment


                    • Dahlia
                      Dahlia commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Are you asking him to a "wine and cheese" date night? :O

                    #13
                    Break effect on Players

                    If I'm able to get another inactive guild matchup, I'll try performing the Break test again on them, with the same moveset as the PvE build. It seems Break works a lot differently for players compared to monsters (not just the thresholds, the
                    Defense Stat Ignore effect too). Tricky to get the damage numbers under Break, thanks to the "Break" text flashing directly over the damage numbers.

                    I tried testing it again (super rough test that I fell into) against a random inactive guild's 43496 DEF Cleric (give or take since preview stats aren't accurate), and without Break, she takes 4000 - 5000 damage (tight approximation) from a no procs Basic Attack. If Break worked the same way it did for PvE (80% DEF and MDEF ignore), then her DEF would be effectively 8699 after Break, and she would've taken 10959 - 11959 damage. However, even with Break on, that Cleric took only 4 digit damage, so Break works differently for players compared to monsters.

                    To prevent more cluttering with image uploads, I've compiled the testing in an album. Take a look:


                    PvP Break Testing

                    Since the Cleric took around 1200 - 1500 more damage from my Basic Attack without Anti-Physical procs, the defense drop is somewhere around 6000 - 7500.

                    For now, I'd estimate the degree of Defense Ignore for PvP as roughly between 10% - 20%. Still needs more testing to reach a suitable conclusion (like hitting > 60k DEF Soldiers, and using Demoralize/Bestial Shout for example).

                    If anyone wants to help with PvP Break testing, feel free to post it here. Just remember to fight an inactive guild who has a Cleric CPU on the frontlines, tell your guild members not to attack, and kill everyone but the Soldiers and Clerics (the latter's AI will heal if you leave them alone for a bit).


                    IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

                    This Is How You DO Play Lancers

                    Comment


                    • LaconicLeaf
                      LaconicLeaf commented
                      Editing a comment
                      HotMessExpress One of the things which makes the tests difficult to pinpoint. The Cleric (shown in the album) has their DEF shown, but for GBs it can be lower or higher based on their GB sets.

                      And on the note of Break potentially being a DEF/MDEF debuff rather than armor penetration, the boost for PvP is pretty small. So it might still reduce the damage Soldiers do with Divine Smash/Dual Sword, although trying to have a CPU cooperate is unreliable as always, with their slower reaction time and potential to target someone else (not to mention procs). Still think it doesn't, however; can a Soldier player confirm?

                    • HotMessExpress
                      HotMessExpress commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Err... sorry, i should have clarified. My comment here ties in with Ace's post (and my comment) above. Since MDEF buffs/debuffs don't seem to be calculated in with cleric heals, it's possible that DEF buffs/debuffs aren't calculated in with soldier attacks. Whether by design or by oversight, it might be possible that secondary stats can be affected (via debuff or break) without impacting the person's skills.

                      Hopefully soldier's DEF alterations up or down do impact their damage, which will help us pin down whether break is a defense drop or an attack boost. It's really moot either way, as damage is damage. As long as a calculation gives reliable results, the rest is academics

                    • LaconicLeaf
                      LaconicLeaf commented
                      Editing a comment
                      HotMessExpress Thank God for Grandosaurs.

                      The easiest way to test if DEF debuffs lower your Divine Smash/Dual Sword damage is to let a Grandosaur Chin Scoop (Lv. 1-4) you until a -80% DEF debuff is applied. Bring a few CPU Clerics so you won't get killed after getting debuffed heavily.

                    #14
                    DEF Debuffs vs Divine Smash/Dual Sword damage



                    The first case where I saw DEF debuffs reducing Soldier damage output was during 45 AP runs of Nyx. I remembered Nyx debuffing DEF and ATK, and I actually outdamaged a Soldier who was double debuffed.

                    It makes logical sense because the reason why you see 180k+ Dual Sword damage screenshots is because it also scales from DEF buffs. (Just ask Nemu! ) However, on the debuffing side, it's still uncertain because it was told, not shown. So I went and ran a quest which had a Grandosaur. His Chin Scoop Lv. 1-4 reduces DEF with stacks equal to its level (Chin Scoop Lv. 4 is -40% DEF).

                    The problem with Grandosaur is his Chin Scoop levels are random (but more likely to use higher leveled ones at lower HP). So I donated my AP for 2 runs for science, since I underestimated my CPU Mage's damage, and Grandosaur attacks waaaaaay slower than I thought he would. (He does speed up at lower HP)

                    Stats:





                    No DEF debuff:





                    -20%


                    Last edited by LaconicLeaf; 05-11-2016, 06:45 PM.


                    IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

                    This Is How You DO Play Lancers

                    Comment


                    • Guest's Avatar
                      Guest commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Oh that's all well known. I have the formula on my soldier guide for pally. This is the case for everything except m defense debuffs on healing.

                    • HotMessExpress
                      HotMessExpress commented
                      Editing a comment
                      So odd that MDEF on heals is not affected when everything else is. It must have been intentional on the part of the devs, but i have no clue why

                    #15
                    -30%






                    ​-60% to -70%





                    -80%





                    DEF debuffs reduce Divine Smash/Dual Sword damage the same way DEF buffs increase both moves' damage.





                    Ateam Admin Just as a simple request, since this topic evolved beyond the effects of Break, could you rename this topic to "Testing the Effects of Break and DEF Debuffs"?


                    Pooper Here's the "long answer" I was talking about for DEF debuffs vs Soldier moves lol


                    IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

                    This Is How You DO Play Lancers

                    Comment


                    • Ateam Admin
                      Ateam Admin commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Yep, thread title changed!

                    • LaconicLeaf
                      LaconicLeaf commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Ateam Admin Thanks! Now it's more clear as to what the topic contains.
                  Working...
                  X