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Savage sting

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    Savage sting

    I still see some people with savage sting, is that still a viable break option?

    It is great until you unlock severe sting which outclasses it. Otherwise they might only carry it along* with severe sting
    Last edited by SubZer0; 08-08-2017, 01:49 PM. Reason: Typo


      It's probably something like this, with my shallow experience as lancer.

      executionspear > severesting > doublesting > savagesting

      Execution spear is pretty damn spammable & cost efficient break god ability. People still like Severe Sting for the combo effect and high AP bonus on broken targets, but I just like Execution since it has such an insane break value for dirt cheap. Also, I don't like using Severe Sting if the target is already broken. Lol

      Also worth mentioning that dragonclaw seems to have a decent break value, but not comparable to the real stings, and is really great for filling up your break chain.

      Nemurerumori / Sword / Fujin
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      • LaconicLeaf
        LaconicLeaf commented
        Editing a comment
        Dragon Claw can also inflict Break, but only if used after Severe Sting. The Break bonus is on the same tier as Double Sting and Execution Spear; can be useful if you use Severe Sting to end a wave transition. However, if you whiff Severe, Dragon Claw becomes a sitting duck for 6 seconds, which is what I dislike about it.

        Severe Sting has the highest base Break bonus, so it's still viable if there's mobs that Break to one cast of it (like Grenier), whereas a Double Sting-tier skill fails to do so. It also has fairly high DPS, being the 4th-highest DPS skill for Lancers, behind Execution Spear, Cross Assault, and Dragon Claw, in that order (after AP buffs and procs are considered).

      While I still see Lv. 140+ Lancers carrying the skill, Savage Sting (and also Sting, which I still see often) is now outdated. Most of the players who use it don't know that Double Sting has higher base Break bonus, a new tier which is on-par with (comboed) Dragon Claw and Execution Spear, but still lower than Severe Sting.

      EDIT: For a more rough Tier List of Break values:

      NOTE: This was tested with 53732 ATK and Cost Recovery as my only Weapon proc. When I tried lowering my ATK stat by removing my Monsters, my Break bonus went considerably down; 2 Basic Sting-tier skills failed to Break the Greater Wyvern in Lab once I had lower ATK, so I had to use 3. However, when I used a Double Sting-tier or higher skill on him, he still gets inflicted with Break regardless.

      So yes, ATK DOES affect Break Bonus to some extent, but for Double Sting-tier and above skills, the ATK scaling for Break Bonus becomes negligible. To support the latter point, I tried 2 using Double Sting-tier skills with 19581 ATK against a 38 AP Arcadia boss, and the results were the same as if I had 110k ATK.

      CPUs were 4 Clerics, as their Basic Attack has negligible Break Bonus.

      Base Break
      1.) Severe Sting (BB = 1.50) "Severe Sting-Tier"
      2.) Double Sting/Execution Spear/Dragon Claw (Comboed) (BB = 1.25 for first hit of multi-hit skills, rest of the hits are BB = 0.1) "Double Sting-Tier"
      3.) Pierce/Sting/Savage Sting/Break Thrust (BB = 0.5) "Basic Sting-Tier"

      Nickname Explanations:
      - Severe Sting, upon release, had "Basic Sting-tier" Break Bonus. When it got buffed, however, it was on a category on its own, exceeding Double Sting's base Break bonus.
      - Double Sting also used to be "Basic Sting-tier," but when 5th Ring came out, its Break Bonus got buffed, so it was the highest Break bonus at the time (and why they had to buff Severe Sting).
      - The 1st-3rd Ring Stings are called "Basic Stings" because any class can use them. However, they have much lower Break bonus than the above two Sting Tiers, and furthermore, their Break bonus scale with your ATK and enemy's DEF, so ATK debuffs and enemy DEF buffs nerf your Break bonus, while the reverse is true. The ATK scaling seems to have a cap for these Stings, at 0.5 BB max (at 20k+ ATK; any ATK lower and it takes more Stings to Break (0.3 BB per Sting), but can't Break Greater Wyvern with 1 Savage Sting even if you had 150k ATK). This was likely done so Lancers can Break easier than other classes trying to use Stings (at least before they got rid of this scaling with moves like Double Sting and Severe Sting).
      Break Thrust is also considered a "Basic Sting" because its Break Bonus matches that of them, and it follows the same rules on inflicting Break as well.

      4.) Cross Assault: BB = 0.3 (each hit is 0.15 BB)
      5.) Dragon Claw (comboless): BB = 0.3 (total; each hit is 0.1 BB)
      6.) Knight's Blitz (200+ AP attacks?): BB = 0.3
      7.) Thrusts/Death Pierce/Smash: BB = 0.2 (100-199 AP attacks?)
      7.) Basic Attack (<100 AP attacks?): BB = 0.1

      As a rough estimate, the Greater Wyvern in Lab gets broken by:
      - 1 Double Sting-tier or higher skill
      - 1 Basic Sting-tier skill + 4 Basic Attacks
      - 1 Basic Sting-tier skill + 1 Dragon Claw/Cross Assault/Knight's Blitz (200 AP attacks/Lancer Multihit skills?) + 1 Basic Attack
      - 1 Basic Sting-tier skill + 1 Thrust (any kind)/Death Pierce/Smash (100 AP attacks?) + 2 Basic Attacks
      - 1 Basic Sting-tier skill + 1 Knight's Blitz (Defense Stance) + 2 Basic Attacks (Yes, Defense Stance DOES reduce Break Bonus, since KB went from 220 to 195 AP)

      Therefore, Greater Wyvern's Break Tolerance is about 0.9.

      However, if you have < 20k ATK, then the Basic Sting-tier skills actually have 0.3 BB.
      This was because it took me 3 Basic Stings to Break the Wyvern once I adjusted my stats to be lower than the threshold.

      Going even further, the first boss in 38 AP Arcadia (Ifrit was our lucky volunteer) requires the following Sting combinations to get inflicted with Break:
      - 2 Double Sting-tier skills (Comboed Dragon Claw + Execution/Double, Double + Execution, etc.)
      - 1 Severe + 1 Double Sting-tier skill (choose from Execution, Double, or Comboed Dragon)
      - 1 Severe + 2 Basic Sting-tier skills
      - 1 Double Sting-tier skill + 3 Basic Sting-tier skills
      - 1 Double Sting-tier skill + 2 Basic Sting-tier skills + 1-2 Basic Attacks (Double Sting is 1.25 BB, not 1.5 as I thought?)
      - 1 Severe + 1 Basic Sting-tier skill + 4-5 Basic Attacks (the test which confirmed Severe Sting's BB is 1.5, not 2.0)
      - 1 Double Sting-tier skill + 1 Basic Sting-tier skill + 11 Basic Attacks (Double Sting 1.25 BB?)
      - 5 Basic Sting-tier skills
      - 1 Double Sting-tier skill (single Enforcer/Heart procs)
      - 1 Basic Sting-tier skill (single Enforcer/Heart procs) + 1 Basic Sting Tier skill (no procs) (any order)

      Thus, the Break Tolerance of Arcadia 38 AP bosses is 2.5. For procs like Enforcer Testament and Heart of the Spear/Sting, a Double Sting-tier skill that activates those procs will inflict Break in one cast, so procs seem to add +1.5 Break Bonus value. Debuffs also affect Break Bonus too; had to carry PL in case Ifrit decided to debuff my ATK stat, and Balancing in case of Garnet Shield (which reduces BB of non-Double Sting-tier skills).

      From the testing, it appears DEF may actually play a role in determining how easy a target is to Break (at least for players; but Ifrit's Garnet Shield also boosted his Break Resistance to non-Double Sting-tier skills). This mainly affects moves like the Basic Sting-tier skills, or any of the non-Break Bonus skills. From my past experiences in PvP, Soldiers and Lancers were the most difficult to Break (can withstand a Break Thrust + 1-3 Basic Attacks), while targets like Mages and Archers are easier thanks to typically having lower DEF (gets inflicted with Break after 1 Break Thrust, and then maybe 1-2 Basic Attacks).

      However, these values are arbitrary, as I felt organizing them decimal-style this way allows me to visualize Break Bonuses easier. Thus, you can think of the values being higher, like Severe Sting having a BB of 1500, Double Sting-tier skills 1250, Basic Sting-tier skills 500, Arcadia Boss's Break Threshold as 2500, and more.

      Edit #2: Did more testing, and found out the following:

      - Severe Sting's Break Bonus is actually 1.5, not 2.0.

      - Double Sting-tier skills' Break Bonus is actually 1.25, not 1.5.

      - Using this information, it seems like Enforcer Testament and Heart of the Spear/Sting procs give an additive +1.5 Break Bonus, not +1.0. This was proven with the last test (1 single Heart proc Basic Sting + 1 procless Basic Sting). It should be noted, the single Heart proc Basic Sting failed to Break Ifrit in one hit, but the procless Basic Sting finished the job.
      Last edited by LaconicLeaf; 08-09-2017, 03:27 PM. Reason: Updated with Break Bonus info, and added another note telling the more accurate Break Bonuses for Severe Sting, Double Sting, and procs that boost Break Bonus; caught one more typo

      IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

      This Is How You DO Play Lancers


      • Nemurerumori
        Nemurerumori commented
        Editing a comment
        doublesting still a pretty hard-to-manage cost guzzler, so i can see why they are still rolling with savage if they dont have 6th ring stuff

      • Verdungo
        Verdungo commented
        Editing a comment
        Laconic, I thank the gods you are here to write and calculate all this stuff up.

      It's pretty savage, don't see why you wouldn't bring it. You wouldn't want to be seve-rious all the time.


      • muda
        muda commented
        Editing a comment
        *why so seve-rious meme here*