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    Elemental Damage Revisited

    After the Elemental Damage Rework, they updated Elemental Damage to show you how much ATK and MATK you have against a particular element, like shown below:






    In this above pic, if you divide 103336 ATK with 57409 ATK, you get 1.80. Dividing 1.80 by the number of Light stacks I have, 8, gives 1.10, so each Elemental Advantage stack is a 10% ATK/MATK boost.


    This provides a relationship of how Elemental Advantage affects damage -- it's simply a multiplier to your ATK/MATK stats. A buff like Nobunaga, for example, adds Elemental Advantage stacks additively, so if I had 2 Fire stacks, and got a Nobunaga buff, I'd have 10 Fire stacks instead.


    But I double-checked this by testing out Elemental Damage, and it doesn't seem to be a +10% ATK/MATK boost. There's times where I ran a few Elemental Rush Arcadia quests, and even though the game shows I had around 100k ATK against a certain element (like Fire), a Lancer with the same ATK without Elemental Advantage still outdamaged me. In fact, the Elemental Advantage is actually lower than that, but read on and find out...




    (I did this testing because in this thread, I thought Elemental Damage was +10% ATK/MATK, and I felt like it was buffed because they revamped Elemental Damage to include damage mitigation. Mirabelle )




    Class = Lancer

    Attack Used = Basic Attack (60 AP)

    Daily Guild Contribution Bonus = MATK 7% (irrelevant to Lancer stats)




    Trial 1 - Elemental Damage and Crit Damage Interactions










    (Last weapon was Cost Recovery)


    Stats
    Raw ATK (includes Furniture boosts) = 62944 ATK
    Light Element stack count = 8 (1.80x ATK/MATK if stacks are +10% ATK/MATK; 1.40x if stacks are +5% ATK/MATK)



    Damage Calculations
    ATK versus Dark element assuming stacks are +10% (post-revamp patch) = (62944)(1.80) = 113299 ATK
    ATK versus Dark element assuming stacks are +5% (pre-revamp patch) = (62944)(1.40) = 88122 ATK

    (Absolutely no Physical Testament or Physical Damage Up weapons were equipped)


    Greater Wyvern's Damage Reduction from Physical Attacks = -1400 damage (Source)


    If stacks were +10% each
    Expected ELEMENTAL damage= (0.40)(60/100)(113299) - 1400 = 25792 damage
    ELEMENTAL Damage Spread (+/- 7.5%) = 23858 - 27726 damage

    Expected ELEMENTAL + CRIT damage = (0.40)([60 + 55]/100)(113299) - 1400 = 50717 damage
    ELEMENTAL + CRIT Damage Spread (+/- 7.5%) = 46913 - 54521 damage


    If stacks were +5% each
    Expected ELEMENTAL damage = (0.40)(60/100)(88122) - 1400 = 19749 damage
    ELEMENTAL Damage Spread (+/- 7.5%) = 18268 - 21230 damage

    Expected ELEMENTAL + CRIT damage= (0.40)([60 + 55]/100)(88122) - 1400 = 39136 damage
    ELEMENTAL + CRIT Damage Spread (+/- 7.5%) = 36201 - 42071 damage



    (Keep in mind I'm not using the most optimal of builds, but rather one that simply stacks a ton of Light element with no Testament procs)




    Data:
    Code:
    1 - 19937
    2 - 18188
    3 - 19604
    4 - 41168 (crit)
    5 - 18235
    6 - 20630
    7 - 20827
    8 - 19212
    9 - 18577
    10 - 17834 (what?)
    11 - 18320
    12 - 18429
    13 - 20563
    14 - 19787
    15 - 41977 (crit)
    16 - 36595 (crit)
    17 - 18019
    18 - 20415
    19 - 21243
    20 - 18595
    21 - 18234
    22 - 16883 (what?)
    23 - 34285 (crit)
    24 - 20426
    25 - 18577
    26 - 20175
    27 - 20018
    28 - 20018
    29 - 20404
    30 - 19937
    31 - 19506
    32 - 20175
    33 - 20415
    34 - 19593
    35 - 37860 (crit)
    36 - 19385
    37 - 19256
    38 - 18679
    39 - 18608
    40 - 17242 (what?)
    41 - 19611
    42 - 18188
    43 - 20834
    44 - 20215
    45 - 20602
    46 - 18407
    47 - 18234
    48 - 20563
    49 - 19609
    50 - 19810




    Initial Results

    - The first picture on this thread at the top is what my Elemental Damage would look like if it were a +10% ATK/MATK boost. When looking at my stats after Furniture is applied, then giving it the Elemental Damage multiplier (1.80), I should have 113299 ATK.
    - But, given the data, Elemental Damage is NOT a +10% ATK/MATK boost, but rather, a +5% ATK/MATK boost. Don't trust what the details in-game tell you. Thus, my ATK is actually 88122, NOT 113299.
    - Had a couple of moments where my actual damage was lower than what I expected from the damage range, so either the RNG damage range is wider than +/- 7.5%, or Greater Wyvern's damage reduction might be higher than 1400.


    Now let's move on with a similar raw ATK, but with 0 Light Element:






    Trial 2 - Basic Damage and Crit Damage Interactions









    (Last weapon was Cost Recovery)


    Thankfully, Light Monsters only have MATK, but in the case of Lamia, I replaced him for a +198 Behemoth, who has really similar ATK. The ATK stat for this trial is slightly higher, but it shouldn't exactly affect the results too severely.



    Damage Calculations
    Expected BASIC damage= (0.40)(60/100)(63144) - 1400 = 13755 damage
    BASIC Damage Spread (+/- 7.5%) = 12723 - 14787 damage
    Expected BASIC + CRIT damage= (0.40)([60 + 55]/100)(63144) - 1400 = 27646 damage
    BASIC + CRIT Damage Spread (+/- 7.5%) = 25573 - 29719 damage




    Data:
    Code:
    1 - 14226
    2 - 13037
    3 - 12381
    4 - 13355
    5 - 13246
    6 -  13118
    7 -  13535
    8 -  14211
    9 - 12508
    10 - 13548
    11 - 12568
    12 - 13382
    13 - 14538
    14 - 13057
    15 - 13938
    16 - 13420
    17 - 12736
    18 - 14193
    19 - 13884
    20 - 12670
    21 - 12508
    22 - 12861
    23 - 26430 (crit)
    24 - 12270
    25 - 13112
    26 - 13121
    27 - 13905
    28 - 14074
    29 - 13206
    30 - 13673
    31 - 12429
    32 - 14328
    33 - 13259
    34 - 13504
    35 - 12129
    36 - 13420
    37 - 14538
    38 - 13382
    39 - 13121
    40 - 13468
    41 - 14364
    42 - 12706
    43 - 12411
    44 - 14484
    45 - 27129 (crit)
    46 - 14377
    47 - 14348
    48 - 12781
    49 - 13037
    50 - 14211




    The purpose of comparing raw ATK damage without Elemental Advantage was to show how different the actual damage done was. Given the data, the damage difference appears to be about 40%, which goes in line with 8 Light Element stacks being +40% ATK/MATK versus Dark Monsters, and not +80%.







    Trial 3 - Comparing Elemental Damage to Basic Damage of the Nearly-Equivalent Effective ATK









    (Last weapon was Secret of the Spear)


    Damage Calculations
    Expected BASIC damage = (0.40)(60/100)(86091) - 1400 = 19262 damage
    BASIC Damage Spread(+/- 7.5%) = 17817 - 20707 damage
    Expected CRIT damage = (0.40)([60 + 55]/100)(86091) - 1400 = 38202 damage
    CRIT Damage Spread(+/- 7.5%) = 35337 - 41067 damage


    (Had to count Non-Physical Testament hits for this one, since my build had them)




    Data:
    Code:
    1 - 18542
    2 - 17212
    3 - 18548
    4 - 18731
    5 - 18704
    6 - 17784
    7 - 20056
    8 - 19725
    9 - 18334
    10 - 39038 (crit)
    11 - 17974
    12 - 40187 (crit)
    13 - 17021
    14 - 16842
    15 - 18729
    16 - 18158
    17 - 17738
    18 - 19327
    19 - 18158
    20 - 18540
    21 - 18118
    22 - 18480
    23 - 17341
    24 - 17341
    25 - 17559
    26 - 37803 (crit)
    27 - 18704
    28 - 19260
    29 - 19299
    30 - 18164
    31 - 18779
    32 - 19677
    33 - 17212
    34 - 20921
    35 - 17031
    36 - 17593
    37 - 18392
    38 - 33070 (crit)
    39 - 20512
    40 - 19924
    41 - 17539
    42 - 18813
    43 - 17917
    44 - 19504
    45 - 20522
    46 - 17201
    47 - 20269
    48 - 19129
    49 - 18392
    50 - 18742




    Final Results


    - The Elemental Advantage details in your Equipment screen is a typo. It's NOT a +10% ATK/MATK damage boost per stack against enemies weak against that element, but actually +5% ATK/MATK per stack. This is likely due to a display error.

    (I mean... it's possible for Elemental Advantage to actually be +10% ATK/MATK, but that would require a rework of the damage formula; +5% ATK/MATK makes more sense given what we know so far)

    - We used to think Critical Hits weren't boosted by Elemental Damage. Analyzing the calculation putting Critical Damage as an AP boost (+55 for Soldiers and Lancers due to a passive), and agreeing with the data, this provides more evidence that Critical Hits are completely independent AP modifiers.

    - The trial where I used the same amount of raw ATK compared to what the calculated Elemental ATK was against Dark monsters had a very similar damage data distribution, which complies with the damage boost being +5% ATK/MATK and not +10% unlike what the game displays.

    - Elemental Damage is still useful. But you can't rely on what the game shows; the boost is actually +5% ATK/MATK for every Elemental Advantage stack you have. Thus, look at your ATK/MATK stats carefully; what you see is not what you get. You'll have to look at your offense stats after Furniture is applied, and then multiply your ATK stat accordingly by the correct value.






    Further Testing?


    If you want to test this out yourself, go to Lab, take off all your Physical/Magic/Fatal Testaments, and then use whatever attack skill you want. Compare the damage you do with Light Elemental Stacks, and then again without those Light element stacks, but with similar ATK or MATK after the equivalent damage multiplier. Are you doing much less damage than what the in-game display shows in the Elements page of your Equipment screen?
    Last edited by LaconicLeaf; 01-13-2017, 01:55 AM.


    IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

    This Is How You DO Play Lancers

    #2
    Huh! Who would have thought? Nice work!
    IGN: Alexander
    ID:2061966018


    100% Grade A Smash

    Comment


      #3
      Woo! I was right!
      Hot Mess Express 2086796674

      Comment


        #4
        Excellent work as usual, Leaf! nn

        There's one last thing that may be worth looking into. Abilities that use a DEF or MDEF stat in the damage calculation, like Divine Smash and Undermine.
        IGN: Mirabelle | Guild: Too Nice
        UL ID: 2104891172

        Comment


          #5
          Very nice and diligent work!!

          Mirabelle you've hit a nail on the head here. High level soldiers know to stack elemental advantage to throw their DPS through the roof. Believe it or not, but a team of 135 soldiers stacked with fire element boost can actually run Zephy almost as fast as archers. Given that they can swap elemental equipment so darn easily... Top tier soldiers can be very useful.

          Comment


            #6
            Wasn't this always known to be true? Unless you're solely referring to the game's display vs. what the players are assuming to be true.
            IGN: CS || Ace

            Guilds:


            COLOSSUS (Rank 1 for RGB5 and RB6)
            E.X Slayer (Rank 1 for RGB7)

            Comment


            • LucyWhite
              LucyWhite commented
              Editing a comment
              lol... killjoy

            #7
            I got lost in all the math ._.
            At the end of the day... 1 stack of element is 10% damage boost?
            ~F2P Noob~​ A Lancer Wanna-Be /)*^*/) (6/18/16) IGN: LucyWhite ID: 2142597804 GS: 310k LvL 160
            #F2PNub Feel Free To Add Me And Chat (/^3^)/

            Comment


            • Mirabelle
              Mirabelle commented
              Editing a comment
              No, it's 5%--just like it was before the big elemental armor update, and that is half of what the elemental summary page is telling us. So don't trust the ATK/MATK values on the elemental page!

            • LucyWhite
              LucyWhite commented
              Editing a comment
              Mirabelle
              Are these only for no elemental defense? Like against players?

            • Mirabelle
              Mirabelle commented
              Editing a comment
              LucyWhite I don't think elemental defense matters for PvP except when taking damage from unisons. Players attacks only count as elemental towards monsters... I think.

            #8
            In my own testing, the damage is +/- 15%

            I have no idea why i kept seeing 7.5%.

            Comment


              #9
              Originally posted by Ace View Post
              Wasn't this always known to be true? Unless you're solely referring to the game's display vs. what the players are assuming to be true.
              I was referring to the game's display, and did this testing because I felt like the game's display suspiciously isn't as strong as what the players thought was true (the damage seemed off when I observed my damage output during quests). The display made it look like the boost was +10%, so I assumed Elemental Damage got buffed right when the revamp patch hit.

              But actually, the value is unchanged. This makes as much sense as Death Pierce having a "secret +50 AP on Break" effect even though the game never explained it.


              IGN: FN || Leaf ID: 2042811095

              This Is How You DO Play Lancers

              Comment


              • Ace
                Ace commented
                Editing a comment
                It's interesting how Ateam did nothing to actually changed how element works. I wonder if its mechanics have changed for PvP as well.

              #10
              I always thought it to be a 5% boost so I ignored the new calculations. Guess it was the right choice!

              Comment


                #11
                Is started noticing this on highest Dmg thread when fujin hit that 200k for the first time I wonder what he used to further his Dmg.


                I'm collecting elemental weapons but playing with elements affinity is smart if u know what you're doing and what quests element u pick.


                LaconicLeaf I even heard players say
                I need to do hel because it boosts my archers ability, on a wind event Smh I got so triggered. Element buff does not boost a class abilities. Only the Dmg

                Comment


                  #12
                  I knew something was off with that 10%, my elemental damage didnt meet my expectations but i was too lazy to test it out xD

                  Also, i was kind of worried about that mechanic being implemented on PvP because this will give P2W even more advantage, after all, they are the ones who can swap out their sets and fight accordingly.

                  Being 5% isnt that bad i think, it can make a difference but i dont think it will be game breaking.

                  Fantastic as always Leaf!

                  Your favorite F2P Archer
                  Daivix - ID: 2039871449

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