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Lancer 103 - The Art of Basic Breaking

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  • #46
    Readers, I have one request:


    - "Does Lancer's Conviction (or any other Conviction procs) really have the same proc rate as a Mastery skill in the Main Slot (45%)?"


    As pointed out by Ace, unlike Heart/Secret procs, whose proc rates are the same, regardless if it's from the GB weapon or single-skill, it seems like Conviction procs just have the same AP boost as Mastery (+60), but with the proc rate of a Heart/Secret skill (30% in Main Slot). However, due to this rather abnormal proc rate, could the AP boost be 50 instead of 60?

    I was initially suspicious of GB 3.0 Weapons since they don't boost the utility of skills unlike the Heart/Secret predecessor procs. But now that the proc rate seems to be rather off, it might not even be something I'd recommend buying (unless you like the massive amount of ATK it gives).


    Here's how to test it:

    - Go to Labyrinth, put Lancer's Conviction (or any equivalent Conviction proc) in your Main Slot.

    - Use 5th Ring skills 200 times.

    - Keep a record of how many times your Conviction proc triggered in those 200 attacks.


    Whaku Mind testing the proc rate of Lancer's Conviction in the Main Slot? If you know others who also have Conviction procs, feel free to ask them for help testing them out.



    Edit: For reference, here's the stat leak of Mastery procs before it got patched:


    Last edited by LaconicLeaf; 01-23-2017, 12:20 AM. Reason: added in the pics to prove the AP boost and proc rates of Mastery skills


    (Credits - UL Avi: Rakqu, GExUL Avi: Match-I)

    This Is How You DO Play Lancers

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    • LaconicLeaf
      LaconicLeaf commented
      Editing a comment
      Kayane 26.5% on that one, and 26% total. Yup, seems close enough to 25% for me.

      I'll go update the entries eventually for that proc...

    • BowDown
      BowDown commented
      Editing a comment
      Whaku Kayane
      Is Lancer's Conviction still known to be a +60 AP Boost like Mastery procs?

    • Whaku
      Whaku commented
      Editing a comment
      BowDown I don't really have time to do solid testing ATM but I did a rough where I had the Lancer Conviction as the only lance equipped. Lowered my ATK to 31115 and spammed Severe Sting on an unbroken Greater Wyvern in lab until I had 10 procced results which were: 25307, 24071, 24471, 21613, 23070, 22118, 24278, 23809, 25543, 23907. If the lance boosted AP by 60 per proc then Severe Sting would've done 230AP damage.

      Next I tested KB + ATK Stance with an unproccable sword in main slot and 3 relics as subs which gave me 31134 ATK (closest I could get to 31115). Again I spammed KB under ATK Stance on the Wyvern until I got 10 results which were: 25943, 28979, 25548, 26454, 27307, 25306, 28673, 25409, 26488, 24307. KB + ATK stance also gives 230AP damage.

      Both trials had 0 stacks of light gear. The AVG for the trial with the Lance procs is 23819 DMG dealt, the AVG for the trial without it is 26441 dealt. So it's possible that the Lancer Conviction deals less than 60AP damage. You need more trials to get solid evidence though but I don't have time, sorry >_<

  • #47
    Now that we know the proc rates of Conviction skills, I revised all the sections featuring "Lancer's Conviction," and also wrote that I don't recommend spending Legend Medals on it. I put "YMMV" there for a reason, with my personal response being "NO," but now that we know the data (feel free to test it out if you want), Conviction procs just aren't worth it compared to Fatal Testaments or Physical XXL.

    If you bought the GB 3.0 Lance despite my subtle warnings, then I sincerely apologize for saying it had a really high proc rate. I didn't expect them to program the Conviction procs to be just like Heart/Secret skills; I went by the logic of the Mastery powercreep because I felt it was logical for them to release stronger procs.

    Due to this, I added in Converge Mastery as a viable PvP Main Slot proc because it works so well with the Lancer's strongest skill. Its main weakness is being incompatible with other skills like Severe Sting, Break Thrust, and Basic Abilities, along with the fear of it becoming obsolete with a possible 6th Ring release.

    Also added in (rough) estimates of the proc rates for Null Damage procs, which - I'm mentioning it here for easy reference - is 15% Main Slot, 5% Sub Slot. Keep in mind, this was from really rough testing over here; we still don't know the exact proc rates for stuff like Physical/Magic Damage Down, Physical/Magic Reflection, and (double) Damage Down/Reflection procs, which could open up more possibilities on how we build defensively. There's been rumors that Damage Down-type procs have a higher proc rate than Reflection-type procs, and it's something I'm also curious about too.


    (Credits - UL Avi: Rakqu, GExUL Avi: Match-I)

    This Is How You DO Play Lancers

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    • #48
      I'm currently lv 101 and going for a 6/6/4/4 since I spawned more helms than armor
      For weapons: (3) Apollo's Favor XL, (1) Enforcer Testament XL, (1) Physical Testament XL, (1) Physical Damage Up XL
      For helm: (1) Apollo's Glory, (3) Magic Reflection XL, (1) Magic Armor UP XL, (1) Physical Damage UP L
      For armor: (1) Apollo's Glory, (1) Physical Reflection XL, (2) Physical Damage Down XL.

      My questions:
      1) I also have Health Regen XL armor but I'm assuming that isn't worth using over the above armors?
      2) I know you have a section for this already but I'm still a little confused about whether to use Apollo's blessing. So I'm only supposed to use it for easier content, but for harder content I'm supposed to use Enforcer, magic reflection, and physical reflection in the main slots? Same question for GvG.
      3) The only spawn monsters I pulled were Aizen, Behemoth, Hel, and Arthur, although I did farm several Apollos. So with those choices, I'm assuming I should slot in Aizen as utility with Apollo's for PvE?

      Thanks in advance for answering!

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      • MelancholyUL
        MelancholyUL commented
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      • HotMessExpress
        HotMessExpress commented
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        I think opening skills are better in pvp where you're under a lot of pressure immediately when the timer starts. They're probably mostly wasted slots in a lot of questing content. Having 20% reflect on the first wave of a quest isn't doing much

    • #49
      Originally posted by slayn View Post
      I'm currently lv 101 and going for a 6/6/4/4 since I spawned more helms than armor
      For weapons: (3) Apollo's Favor XL, (1) Enforcer Testament XL, (1) Physical Testament XL, (1) Physical Damage Up XL
      For helm: (1) Apollo's Glory, (3) Magic Reflection XL, (1) Magic Armor UP XL, (1) Physical Damage UP L
      For armor: (1) Apollo's Glory, (1) Physical Reflection XL, (2) Physical Damage Down XL.

      My questions:
      1) I also have Health Regen XL armor but I'm assuming that isn't worth using over the above armors?
      2) I know you have a section for this already but I'm still a little confused about whether to use Apollo's blessing. So I'm only supposed to use it for easier content, but for harder content I'm supposed to use Enforcer, magic reflection, and physical reflection in the main slots? Same question for GvG.
      3) The only spawn monsters I pulled were Aizen, Behemoth, Hel, and Arthur, although I did farm several Apollos. So with those choices, I'm assuming I should slot in Aizen as utility with Apollo's for PvE?

      Thanks in advance for answering!
      1) Health Regen XL isn't that great on its own. Maybe with 2 of them (maximum stackable), they can kinda be a niche in places with high HP multipliers like Colo or even GvG, but for general questing, it's dead weight. It's better to have a defensive proc instead, stacking constants once you have enough defense procs for a specific type.

      2) I did go over and edit the Apollo Blessing section thoroughly, making the "old content" in quoted text to show how things have changed. It's more usable than before thanks to the high Break bonuses of Double Sting and Severe Sting, both being able to Break even if neither proc Enforcer Testament or even Heart procs (in Double Sting's case). But for harder quests like Arcadia Elemental Rush, it's more helpful to take off the Apollo Blessing because Main Slot defense procs will drastically boost your survivability there.

      In the case of GvG, the Apollo Blessing isn't viable. It's tempting to use it for the sheer firepower, but doing so leaves you extremely glass cannon with the loss of Main Slot defense procs.

      3) Aizen is pretty much your main utility monster, since Arthur is more PvP-orientated with his high single-hit nuke. You can use Hel if you're running Light elemental content, because her elemental boost rivals that of even a Valk buff (and it stacks!). Although, I'd recommend farming a Vol&Rena, and then 2 Soul Destroyers; a build of Vol&Rena, Apollo x2 (or 1 with a utility monster), Soul Destroyer x2, and Firemin x2 only requires 142 cost. It's actually great to go up to 5 UR monsters eventually.


      On another note, I'd recommend replacing Physical Damage Up for another Physical Testament proc, or even Cost Recovery. Then for Helms and Armors, hold onto the Magic Armor Up for later when you have more defense procs; the Valentine's Day event is a great source of farmable UR defense gear with Magic Damage Down XL.


      (Credits - UL Avi: Rakqu, GExUL Avi: Match-I)

      This Is How You DO Play Lancers

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      • slayn
        slayn commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you!

    • #50
      Updated with an analysis of the new Basic Ability, Heroic Dread, in the respective Basic Abilities section.

      Also added in my inside-joke starring Dragon Assault in its own subsection in the Basic Abilities, since I felt its entry didn't feel... well, complete enough without it.


      (Credits - UL Avi: Rakqu, GExUL Avi: Match-I)

      This Is How You DO Play Lancers

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      • #51
        For the age-old issue about "Cross Assault getting its +50 AP boost on the second hit only..." here's a feed of images exploring this problem. Adajer boltthecat





        (Left: No Break; Right: With Break)

        For these tests, I made sure to have absolutely no Physical Testament type procs equipped. I lowered my ATK so I won't end up killing the Wyvern too fast after I hit it with Double Sting to inflict Break. I'm well aware that Severe Sting also causes Break, but I kept things simple by not factoring in the combo AP damage. No Elemental Damage stacks were included.

        I always thought Cross Assault DID get the +50 AP boost on the first hit, but the second hit actually gets +100 AP instead. Running the calculations:

        Greater Wyvern's Damage Reduction = -1400 damage taken

        Cross Assault (comboless, no Break) = (41011)(0.40)(130/100) -1400 = 19925 (18430 - 21419)
        Cross Assault (comboless, Break, 1st Hit) = (41011)(0.40)(180/100) - 1400 = 28127 (26017 - 30236)
        Cross Assault (comboless, Break, 2nd Hit) = (41011)(0.40)(230/100) - 1400 = 36330 (33605 - 39054)




        Other Notes

        - It seems like whenever you're fully buffed, the second hit of Cross Assault will hit for +50 AP damage instead of +100. This tends to happen when you have Critical Damage or Physical AP Damage buffs active; at times the second hit will deal just as much damage as the first one.


        (Credits - UL Avi: Rakqu, GExUL Avi: Match-I)

        This Is How You DO Play Lancers

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        • boltthecat
          boltthecat commented
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          Very good observation. I only use my lancer to break nowadays, so i never paid attention to tiny detail like this.

      • #52
        A few sections needed a bit of a coat of paint over them. Namely the Intro, the Cost Builds, and other minor changes. Also updated Colo and Mobius as well, since there were many new things since then.

        But I've got one question:


        - "What's going on with Apollo's Favor XL's proc rate in the Main Slot?"


        According to Fujin's spreadsheet, Apollo's Favor XL has a 25% Main Slot proc rate. However, when I tried testing it, my results didn't quite agree.

        I did 400 attacks with Apollo's Favor XL in the Main Slot, but in the end, I got 71 procs out of 400 attacks. This ended up being a proc rate of 17.75%, which is close to the standard 20% proc rate that matches vanilla Physical Testaments in the Main Slot. (The testing was similar to Fujin using Amaterasu's Favor with Healing skills 400 times in the Main Slot, and he got similar results as me with Apollo's Favor)

        So Apollo's Favor XL is nothing more than a Physical Testament XL that triggers a Blessing effect when used with the right equips. I'm not sure if my testing had insanely bad luck, but if you want to help, be my guest...


        Due to this finding, I placed Apollo's Favor XL lower on the proc rankings for PvP Lancers, and updated its information on the proc section of the guide. If you want a good Main Slot weapon, I think maybe you should probably stick with Fatal XXL, Fatal XL, or even Converge Mastery XL if you have it; Physical Testament XXL also works fine too.


        (Credits - UL Avi: Rakqu, GExUL Avi: Match-I)

        This Is How You DO Play Lancers

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        • LaconicLeaf
          LaconicLeaf commented
          Editing a comment
          Exifea Feels weird to encounter a higher proc rate like that. Maybe doing 250-750 more trials could stabilize the data some more?

          Might've gotten a more luckier streak than usual, or that Cleric's Mastery skills actually may have a higher proc rate at 50%-55%-ish...

        • Exifea
          Exifea commented
          Editing a comment
          LaconicLeaf From personal GvG experience it definitely does feel like it procs alot. I'll try get a few more trials done later today though.

        • Exifea
          Exifea commented
          Editing a comment
          Did another 250 runs and got a 40.4% proc rate (101/250). Brings the total to a 46.6% proc rate, which sounds accurate (233/500).

      • #53
        Do you happen to have the list of claim of "break" effect? I have been doing some testing on it and wanted to see other people'e discoveries.

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        • LaconicLeaf
          LaconicLeaf commented
          Editing a comment
          It's under the Break Mechanics subsection in Part IX of the guide (the post after it), where I posted a link to how I tested Break's effects by comparing it to various DEF debuff stacking.

          Here's the link in question:
          https://forum.a-tm.co.jp/forum/uniso...nd-def-debuffs


          Here's another source which may pinpoint Break as a 55% Defense Penetration effect instead of 80% (versus Monsters):
          https://forum.a-tm.co.jp/forum/uniso...877#post134877

          (Credit: Mirabelle )

          Also, some people claim that Break makes defenses useless in PvP, but that is not true. I tried Basic Attacking a Soldier with and without Break, but I did the same amount of damage either way.

          The truth about Break ''making defenses useless'' has to do with simply the raw power of Cross Assault. 180 AP/190 AP x2 is no joke. Have you even been hit by Knight's Blitz when it was still just a 190 AP attack? Think of that, but happening twice.

        • boltthecat
          boltthecat commented
          Editing a comment
          I am going to do one more test, then i will show u my finding

        • boltthecat
          boltthecat commented
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          I'm actually a little shock. I will play around with my data in the next few days.

      • #54
        For me the 10% constant attack of the blessing its enough... ( its like having another lance equipped)

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        • #55
          Would you recommend Soul Destroyer or Grenier? With the two lancer-targeted events running, I can't decide which one to focus.

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          • LaconicLeaf
            LaconicLeaf commented
            Editing a comment
            It's still good to farm a Grenier or two. He's mainly used to replace Apollos, although you may want to keep 1 Apollo for GvGs depending on your Guild's preferred element. Of course, if your main goal is maximizing ATK, Ifrit is a much more cost efficient monster for that, if you're willing to use 3 Fire Orbs. His overall stats are lower, but you're only really sacrificing DEF, which doesn't scale into Lancer attacks.

            Soul Destroyer is still worth farming regardless. He's an amazing stat stick, but only Lancers can really use him, so consider grabbing two.

        • #56
          Do you recommend (haste/zero) Architect Valkyrie? If so, for PvP or PvE or both? LaconicLeaf

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          • LaconicLeaf
            LaconicLeaf commented
            Editing a comment
            I updated the Monster section with her, and I'd say definitely. She's the best stat stick (and Haste monster imo) in the game currently, hands down.

            Although her buff duration isn't as high as the other Valks, she has more utility compared to most of them (can be considered equal or less than Water Valk), and also, 2 minute buffs can be Balanced away by bosses anyways.

            So an excellent PvE monster, and can be useful for PvP too if your guild can fit her into their strategy.

          • MelancholyUL
            MelancholyUL commented
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            Thank you!

          • BlitzJager
            BlitzJager commented
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            LaconicLeaf
            '2 minute buffs can be Balanced away'

            As great as Valks are their extra buff time is becoming less and less useful.

        • #57
          I need your help, please. I got the Soul of the Ogre lance, but extremely doubt I will drop basic attack for this ability. I am thinking of just infusing it into another lance. I don't want to do so though, if this ability is better than basic attack. What are your thoughts? LaconicLeaf

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          • MelancholyUL
            MelancholyUL commented
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            I have the SOS one BlitzJager

          • LaconicLeaf
            LaconicLeaf commented
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            Thought you had the Physical Testament one. In that case, it's rather iffy at best. You have a good PvP Basic Ability, but then with the SotS version, you'll literally have 6 procs instead of 7 effectively.

            Idk, personally, I'm rather leaning towards infusing it into a 28 cost Lance with a Testament or something...

          • MelancholyUL
            MelancholyUL commented
            Editing a comment
            Thank you LaconicLeaf I really want to use it for infusion, plus I have phys test XL and phys test XXL lances, plus love my basic attack, so I think going for infusion is probably the best choice.

        • #58
          how many defensive procs should I have before using constants like magic armor up?

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          • BlitzJager
            BlitzJager commented
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            9-10 armour gears = 0-1 Constants.
            11-14 armour gears = 1-3 Constants. (3 if you feel like using HP up.)

          • slayn
            slayn commented
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            thank you!

          • BlitzJager
            BlitzJager commented
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            slayn obviously though you'll make use of your constants if you lack other procs.

            My opinion with previous reply was that an x/4/4/x should try not to use constants.

        • #59
          Did a bit of an overhaul with some information:

          - The most important piece of intel is the drop rates of the 35 cost monster in the Super Challenge Quests.

          It's pretty much nigh impossible, despite being the difficulty where the monster is supposed to drop at. And even if you DO get the monster, what are the chances of it NOT being ATK/DEF, let alone MDEF/ATK?

          If you want to learn more, click here. I also updated the Class Builds for 8th Slot to reflect this discovery.

          (Credit: Aiolos for being part of the brave team who valiantly fought in an attempt to get the monster to drop, although in vain. I give him my eternal thanks for sharing his data instead of keeping it under lock and key... Hope you don't mind)


          - Updated the Lancer Procs section to have proc rates of each skill.

          Some of them are unconfirmed, like Fatal Psalm (heard the proc rate is less than Fatal) and the Sub Slot proc rate for Fatal Testament XXL (15% or 20%?), but from hanging out at certain ---- chats, and visiting the Equipment Skill Thread whenever it gets bumped, I updated the procs with a general gist of their proc rates.

          Heart procs are typically 30% Main, 15% Sub, but there are a few exceptions (Mirror Guard and Healing Wind/WTB may have much higher proc rates in both slot types for example). But with Secret XXL, either the proc rates are much higher, or they simply just have higher AP damage (like Physical Testament XXL's trend).

          Mastery procs have the highest proc rates to compensate for only boosting one skill. They're a 45% Main, 20% Sub Slot proc rate. Furthermore, their damage is much higher than a Physical Testament XXL or Heart/Secret proc, at 60 AP compared to 50. Out of all three Mastery procs, Converge Mastery is the one worth using because it boosts your strongest single-target attack reliably.


          - For fun, I added ratings for all Lancer skills and basic abilities.

          A minor edit, but still rather helpful nonetheless. I added ratings based on each skill's performance in PvE and PvP, with brief explanations. Some forms of PvE are different, so some skills may have multiple ratings.




          And before I forget...



          HAPPY PI DAY!


          (3 days early, as a reminder to order your pies for that day; it's also a reference to how DST started 3 days early in UL)
          Last edited by LaconicLeaf; 03-11-2017, 09:20 PM.


          (Credits - UL Avi: Rakqu, GExUL Avi: Match-I)

          This Is How You DO Play Lancers

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          • SpazPro
            SpazPro commented
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            LaconicLeaf

            The early DLS threw off my scedualing so badly. I've been accidentally missing all my guild battles and will probably continue to do so until daylight savings ACTUALLY takes place.

          • LaconicLeaf
            LaconicLeaf commented
            Editing a comment
            SpazPro Fortunately, DST officially starts tomorrow, so the confusion should end. (That is, if you're in a country that participates in DST)

          • HotMessExpress
            HotMessExpress commented
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            I've been missing a lot too. Happy things are going back to normal today

        • #60
          Hopefully, everyone had a nice Pi day and St. Patrick's Day, as Winter is already over (thank God), and Spring is now here.


          For those wondering if the Miku Collab Basic Ability is worth it, click here and find out.

          (I'll edit the Basic Ability section once the Miku Collab returns in Global UL)






          One (small) thing I realized about Severe Sting. Let's say you were running a Break build for Lancers.

          So you used Double Sting, procced a Heart of the Sting (or its derivatives), and then inflicted Break to an enemy. What's the right thing to do next?

          If you use Severe Sting right afterwards, which seems like the most logical choice, you'll get the Break bonus AP effect right away, but if you use Basic Attack right after Severe, then both Basic and Severe will have their cooldowns synced (counting down for 4 seconds each). With synced cooldowns, it hinders Basic Attack's DPS, because you still have to sit through Severe Sting's animation before you can cast Basic Attack again.

          The correct answer is to use Basic Attack after you use Double Sting, or before using Severe Sting+Cross Assault, regardless of Break or not.
          This ensures both moves don't match up in cooldown thanks to animation speeds, and it lets you have Basic Attack as a proper DPS supplement skill alongside Severe Sting. If Basic Attack and Severe Sting overlap in cooldowns, which should happen after 2 reps of Basic+Severe rotations, again, use the Basic Attack first to desync the two skills' cooldown timers.


          Just a small tip, because animation speeds are one thing to consider with cooldowns. When used improperly, Severe Sting can make Basic Attack have effectively a 6 sec cooldown, hurting its DPS. You need to desync cooldown timers as much as possible to maximize your damage output.


          (Credits - UL Avi: Rakqu, GExUL Avi: Match-I)

          This Is How You DO Play Lancers

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          • BlitzJager
            BlitzJager commented
            Editing a comment
            Specifically with CDR active I try to use my CA/SS/Basic in a way that the CDs don't overlap so I can spam.

            When I'm Cleric or lancer with high cost and a CDR... expect non stop casting. When I'm Cleric it may depend on the quest and whether or not I have a uniguage boost as well.

            Imo clerics with high cost, CDR, and uniboost should safely spam until their unison is full again.
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