Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Heal strengths

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by PetPet View Post
    Thank you! This is super helpful; I've wanted to know the healing formula for a while now.

    Edit: Just finished reading it; I understand where you're coming from on cost efficiency from a math perspective, but I think practical healing doesn't fit the theory in this case. Outside of GvG, most heals will heal a person to full health, so the heal per cost ratio isn't really that important. I think judging heals by cast speed, cooldown, cost, and refresh / cleanse propertiesl makes more sense than the amount of HP restored, with HP restored only relevant for the basic attack replacements Prayer and Halloween Parade.
    Whoops. Dunno how I didn't see this until now, but it's my opinion that if your 60~80ap heals are always filling people's hp (negating the import of amount of HP restored) then you've got too much matk. Probably also too many heal boosting procs on. What isn't negated (when heal amount stops mattering) is the cost and cooldown. Actually in that situation they become even more important, as you're healing for the same hp value regardless of what the green numbers say. The stronger heal loses the thing that makes it better, unless there's some added utility to the spell.

    Though I agree 100% that the 'right heal for the job' should be decided based on situation and utility. Cleanse Healing is an uninspiring heal with almost no available procs, but for some quests it can make the difference between clearing or not clearing. Aid has good cooldown and (theoretical) cost efficiency, but you'd be foolish to bring it on quests since it has similar power as Cure without the status restoration utility.

    Even Cure is bad to bring to quests after a cleric's stats have matured, which is why I listed absolute hp restoration values for a given stat level rather than just theoretical efficiency numbers. Seeing a Cure-epeen-measuring conversation was actually the impetus for writing up this thread. People were basically bragging about how terribly wasteful their builds were
    Hot Mess Express 2086796674

    Comment


    • #17
      So, the relics from the snowman event are Healing Testament L. As I don't have any Healing Testament, I'm working on farming a bunch of these. Has anyone tested to see how much it boosts healing? (I'm guessing 30%, since Healing Testament XL is a 40% boost...)
      IGN: Mirabelle | Guild: Too Nice
      UL ID: 2104891172

      Comment


      • pumpkin
        pumpkin commented
        Editing a comment
        Tested the snowman relic a bit and yeah looks to be 30%.

      • Mirabelle
        Mirabelle commented
        Editing a comment
        pumpkin Thank you! :3

    • #18
      Got an Aid Mastery recently, so i took that out to test tonight. Went ahead and confirmed Hearts of Health and Recovery as well. Updated section about procs
      Hot Mess Express 2086796674

      Comment


      • #19
        Just did a trial to try to nail down Healing Testament XL. Seems it is exactly a 1.4x multiplier to the final heal amount. I was getting imprecise results previously by simply multiplying 1.4 and occasionally i was off in the actual base heal amounts. I was inaccurate by very small amounts but inaccurate nonetheless.

        A recent revision to the way i'm calculating expected heal amounts has made me 100% accurate so far, and i'm now confident this is how the game calculates base heal amount:

        ROUND((FLOOR(MATK*.69)+FLOOR(MDEF*.46))*AP*MOD)

        So you take your MATK and multiply by .69 then drop any remaining decimal. Multiply your MDEF by .46 and again drop any decimals. Add these two numbers together.

        Multiply that number by the AP of the heal.

        Multiply that number by .01 for a standard heal or .014 for a Test XL. I assume if you have two Healing Testaments process at once then it would become .018 but i have no way to test this.

        Take this final result and round it (not truncate/floor/round down) to the nearest whole number.

        I was previously occasionally off by 1 on heal math, so i figured it was a rounding error i was making somewhere. This way (so far) has always landed on the correct number. If anybody else cares to play with the calculation, please let me know if you find this to be consistently on the money.

        ~~~~

        ALSO on this particular trial, i was using Heal. My final results for both vanilla and testament heals had groupings of 5 numbers, and all of these numbers coincided with heals of AP values very very close but not quite exactly +/- 2ap. It could be an even AP step with some kind of rounding error i haven't found, or it could be coincidental thanks to the 70ap ability. I'll have to do another test later with Recover.

        Solving backward for my base heals to "find" Heal's AP i ended up with:
        67.98
        68.99
        70.01
        71.02
        72.04

        And on testament procs:
        67.99
        69.01
        70.02
        71.03
        72.05

        It's far enough that i wouldn't bet on it being an even AP step, but it's so close that i can't help being hopeful. So exciting and so frustrating, arggh.
        Hot Mess Express 2086796674

        Comment


        • #20
          For what it's worth, I have noticed the strongest proc combination BY FAR is Healing Testament XL + Heart of Health XL.

          The 40% Healing Testament modification seems to calculate at the end of all other calculations, which may shed some insight into the healing formula. Rather than Healing Testament being applied to the base amount, it looks to be applied to the base amount plus heart of health AP.

          Try it out. When you have both HT and HoH on a heal, the number is suddenly insane, with 2x HT or 2x HoH having no comparison.
          ID: 2097556519
          111 Cleric / 195k GS / 54k MATK 35K DEF / 85k MDEF
          Architect Valkyrie / Kagutsuchi / Santa Flora / Santa Lilith

          Comment


          • HotMessExpress
            HotMessExpress commented
            Editing a comment
            With 55570 MATK and 102612 MDEF a baseline Aid would be 102653. With a 60% MATK buff (MDEF buffs/debuffs don't affect heals) along with Aid Mastery and Healing Testament procs, i did this:



            Again though, very large heals are pointless in pve. Only in pvp does it matter if you can heal for amounts like that. In pve (and depending on your need, also in pvp) Cost Recovery and low cooldowns are the best way to ensure nobody dies. It is advantageous to ensure you're never waiting on cooldown and never out of cost to cast a heal
            Last edited by HotMessExpress; 01-20-2017, 02:32 PM.

          • HotMessExpress
            HotMessExpress commented
            Editing a comment
            But yes as i said in the post above yours, the testament multiplier is factored in last in the calculation

        • #21
          It's really easy to get a "heart of heal" weapon for your main slot. (HoH increases power of cleric abilities) Crystal of Grace is a good example of this.
          I also want to know what proc and Gatorade are.

          UL ID: 2100764341
          Username: [WOC] Fenrir
          Guild: Fenrir Glory
          Weird, loud, annoying person who likes old movies.
          Profile picture thanks to [King] Sonder
          Sigpic thanks to Crito

          Comment


          • HotMessExpress
            HotMessExpress commented
            Editing a comment
            Gatoraid is a funny way of referring to Greater Aid because they sound similar.

            Proc is short for process and refers to skills dependent on random number generators - basically boosts that only have a chance of activation. If the skill gets processed that means it activated

          • Mirabelle
            Mirabelle commented
            Editing a comment
            I think proc is short for Programmed Random OCcurance.

            I can't get enough of calling Greater Aid Gatorade, lol. x3

        • #22
          I keep hearing about an ability that restores AP. I looked, but found no ability like that. Where do you get that ability?

          UL ID: 2100764341
          Username: [WOC] Fenrir
          Guild: Fenrir Glory
          Weird, loud, annoying person who likes old movies.
          Profile picture thanks to [King] Sonder
          Sigpic thanks to Crito

          Comment


          • Ell
            Ell commented
            Editing a comment
            Are you talking about Cost Recovery weapons from colo? They have a chance to recover 5 cost when dealing damage or healing. Other than that, i got no clue what else.

          • HotMessExpress
            HotMessExpress commented
            Editing a comment
            Yeah, you can earn weapons with the cost recovery skill by trading in 30 colosseum medals. Since cleric is less stats-reliant than some other classes, we can get away with using each class's weapon in spite of the loss in useful stats.

            I only have 4 of them yet, and the efficiency they give in pve is amazing. They're potentially useful in pvp as well, depending on build and strategy

        • #23
          HotMessExpress Wait, so is your build reliant on CRx4 and 5th ring moves or do you also use Healing Test/HoH as well?
          i'll sacrifice a goat for u

          Comment


          • HotMessExpress
            HotMessExpress commented
            Editing a comment
            In quests I'm using CRx4 and a Test with Recover / G.aid / Dignity / A.recovery - was using A.heal for the longest time, but G.aid has a better cooldown and I don't have cost issues because of the CR

        • #24
          Found that with the ability that increases the Greater Blessing at XL it increases the amount of hp gained by 50% for a 80% increase in hp total regardless of stats

          Forgot i had the arthur book in my storage ^3^;

          Anyway tested it in lab, at 147 cleric i have 83534 health with no health up armors

          Without the proc my hp increased by 30% as intended to 108594
          With proc my hp increased by 80% to 150361

          Hope your findings come with similar results
          ID: 2136016703
          Got the only waifu that counts (˵ ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°˵)ノ⌒♡*:・。.

          Comment


          • #25
            Updated healing formula:

            Heal amount = Stats * Multiplier * Randomness

            ~~~~~


            Stats is the same as it always was: ( MATK * .69 ) + ( MDEF * .46 )

            We'll say you're rocking 100k each in MATK and MDEF to make the math easy. The "healing power" of your stats is going to be 69k + 46k or a total of 115000 stat-based heal fuel

            ~~~~~

            Multiplier is the sum of all of the gear skills and buffs that are influencing your heal strength. The formula looks something like:

            1+ ( ( BaseAP + FlatAP + FLOOR ( PercentAP ) ) / 100 )

            The first two are pretty straightforward. I'm not fully happy with my conceptualization for the third, but it maths out right so whatever.

            BaseAP is the AP of the heal as listed in the skill description, plus any applicable passive traits. Which is to say that Heal is 70ap for a cleric with a relic in main slot, while it's only 10ap for a non-cleric or for a cleric holding a non-relic in main slot.

            FlatAP is the bonus being granted by procs that increase heal amounts by a flat value. Any "Heart of [Attribute]" gives a 40ap boost at XL lv5. Seal of Health is also 40ap, as is Amaterasu's Favor. I think for a standard XL calculation, you basically only need to know whether 0, 1, or 2 of these are activating, and just add 40 for each.

            PercentAP sounds like a pretty confusing concept. How can it be a percentage when AP is always listed in discreet, whole-number values?

            I was previously calling Healing Testament a scaled 40% increase to heal amount, which it definitely is at XL lv 5. Such a large percentage avoids having any decimals, so if you're strictly calculating for Healing Test then you can calculate a whole heal and then multiply by 1.4 at the end and be on your way.

            However, this breaks down with smaller percentages, such as the 8% bonus given by each Heal Up constant effect.

            The "percentage" AP mod is calculated by adding together your BaseAP and any FlatAP bonuses, then multiplying that number by the sum of the percentages modifying your heals. Any decimals in THIS number are dropped, leaving you with an even AP amount, which is then added to the BaseAP and FlatAP in the calculation above. Our 10ap Heal with a 40% Testament modifier becomes 14ap, but with an 8% modifier it becomes 10.8ap, which gets truncated to still healing for 10ap. If you proc Testament and have a constant on, these seem to be handled additively with each other, the same as BaseAP and FlatAP are added with each other.

            So if you're casting Heal as a cleric wearing the right main slot, and you double proc Amaterasu's Favor and Healing Testament to go along with your double constant Heal Up gear:

            Your BaseAP is 70 for casting Heal correctly.

            Your FlatAP mod is 40 because Ama's Favor functions the same as Heart of Health XL.

            Your PercentAP mod is ( 70 + 40 ) * ( .4 + .16 ) - or - 110 * .56 - or - 61.6 which gets the decimal dropped, leaving us with a PercentAP bonus of 61. This AP is then added to the other two:

            70 + 40 + 61 is the total AP of the heal, at 171.

            That total AP amount is then turned into a modifier by making it a percentage (divide by 100to get 1.71) and adding 1 so our final multiplier is 2.71

            ~~~~~

            Randomness splits the heal amount into 5 possibilities - the "expected" heal value itself, and two each above and below the baseline value.

            1+ ( RANDBETWEEN ( -2, 2 ) / 69 )

            It seems the game just picks a number between negative and positive 2, and it divides that number by 69. Add 1 to turn your modifier into a multiplier, and that's it. As simple as it is, this part took me way too long to nail down. I picture some Japanese developer at Ateam giggling his face off when he was programming this into the game. My previous attempts kept leading me to almost 1.5% increments (modifiers near but not exactly 1.45% and 2.9%) and figuring out that i had to divide by 69 was mind blowing.

            It's important to note that this number is going to be a long decimal. It is not rounded or otherwise altered. Decimals are only dropped at two points in the calculation - when figuring out your PercentAP bonus, and at the very end to prevent healing for partial HP amounts.

            So our randomness factor will come out to one of these:

            1 + ( -2 / 69 ) = 0.971
            1 + ( -1 / 69 ) = 0.986
            1 + ( 0 / 69 ) = 1
            1 + ( -2 / 69 ) = 1.014
            1 + ( -2 / 69 ) = 1.029

            Thankfully to make up for the wierdness here, this part of the equation never changes regardless of your gear, class, or stat arrangement. Just multiply your stats by your AP modifiers and then multiply that by each of the 5 results listed here to get the 5 real heal amounts you'll be seeing.

            ~~~~~

            After that, you just multiply all of your pieces together and drop any decimals at the end.

            I'll have to recheck this later after some sleep to be sure i haven't botched it, but earlier i was able to go into the labyrinth with this info and fill out a whole spreadsheet with every predicted value for a given heal with all proc combinations and heal values accounted for. I could just cast a spell and 100% of the time i could immediately go to the correct column and find the exact value for my heal.

            Using our values above, we're going to cast Heal for one of the following amounts:

            190950
            193800
            196650
            199500
            202350


            Not bad, getting ~200k heals out of 10 cost input
            Last edited by HotMessExpress; 12-11-2018, 03:56 PM.
            Hot Mess Express 2086796674

            Comment


            • #26
              Or, since somebody asked for an easier to copy format that includes everything the game uses to calculate a heal:

              HealAmount = FLOOR( ( ( MATK * .69 ) + ( MDEF * .46 ) ) * ( BaseAP + FlatAP + FLOOR( ( BaseAP + FlatAP ) * ( PercentMod / 100 ) ) ) * ( 1 + ( RANDBETWEEN( -2, 2 ) / 69 ) ) )

              Where:
              MATK = your MATK stat at the time of cast (including any buffs or debuffs)
              MDEF = your MDEF stat at cast time (NOT including any buffs or debuffs)
              BaseAP = the ability's AP rating (don't forget to include passives if applicable)
              FlatAP = any added AP amounts (40 from a "Heart of" proc or 60 from Mastery)
              PercentMod = the sum of any percentages modifying your heal (vanilla Testament is 40 and Heal Up constant is 8)

              To figure out where your expected base heal amount should be for a given spell/proc combination you can do without the last section (from the 1+ portion onward including the opening parenthesis) but don't forget to retain a closing parenthesis to match the opening one in the first FLOOR invocation.

              For spreadsheet purposes, if you're trying to confirm you're accounting for everything properly, instead of actually using the RANDBETWEEN function i prefer to calculate output to five boxes, each with 1+(number/69) for the numbers -2, -1, 0, 1, and 2.
              Hot Mess Express 2086796674

              Comment


              • #27
                Time to rehash the original post.

                (tl;dr - it's harder now to pick clear winners or losers, but it's still much better to be quick and efficient. Lower cooldown and lower cost is the way to go, though spell utility is also an important concern.)

                Some pretty fundamental changes have been made to the heals from the first four rings thanks to enchantment, and a few new skills are on the horizon as well. I'm reworking these as AP-rated instead of giving actual HP numbers, like Mirabelle said i should have done originally. It will make maintaining this list much easier in the long run, though i'm making a new post instead of editing the OP because it would break thread continuity to rewrite the OP.

                However, even though i've dropped the HP amounts healed i'd still highly recommend that you continually monitor your actual heal amounts vs party HP until or unless (a) your skills are dictated by their utility, or (b) your stats reach the soft cap (you're nearly always healing to full regardless of skill choice). Utility is a very large consideration not within the scope of this thread, and soft capping will shift your effective spell range toward the lighter, faster skills. Only carry slower and more expensive spells if you need the utility (for instance: Arc Heal > Recover > Heal > Aid in PvE) or if your stats are low enough that you need stronger heals to keep people alive.

                BASE ABILITIES
                single heals AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Arc heal 120 10 7 12 17.14
                Aid 120 15 5 8 24
                Heal 70 10 5 7 14
                Recover 90 11 7 8.18 12.86
                Cure 110 12 7 9.17 15.71
                area heals AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Greater arc 70 20 10 10.5 21
                Greater aid 70 20 7 10.5 30
                Area recovery 70 16 20 13.13 10.5
                Cleanse / Veil 60 16 20 11.25 9
                Area heal 50 12 15 12.5 10
                Greater healing 70 15 17 14 12.35
                Area cure 80 20 22 12 10.9
                party heals AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Sacrifice (5) 70 n/a 15 n/a 23.33
                Sacrifice (9) 70 n/a 15 n/a 42
                Holy circle (5) 30 30 40 5 3.75
                Holy circle (9) 30 30 40 9 6.75
                Dignity (5) 60 20 30 15 10
                Dignity (9) 60 20 30 27 18
                weapon heals AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Elementals 80 12 8 6.67 10
                Battle heal 50 9 7 5.56 7.14
                Xmas / Hallo 40 5 8 8 5
                Prayer 20 12 7 1.67 2.86






































                I guess i had missed some of the changes in the big ability rebalancing that happened a while back, because when writing down info for this post i was surprised to see Cure now has the same cooldown as Recover. I don't remember this being the case previously, but it's a significant buff to Cure. I'd still generally recommend clerics carry Recover instead as the activation time for Cure is very long, which can lead to your target dying sometimes. I'd upgrade Cure from awful to sub-optimal now, though imo it's still only meant to be carried by DPS players who are afraid of dying.

                Prayer is still completely, obviously, irredeemably awful. You should only carry it if your stats are so tremendous that 20ap is good AND you always have so much cost that spending 12 won't make a difference. Basic attack is better utility.

                The new Elemental saber abilities are expensive like Prayer, but you get a real heal out of them, and they buff the target's corresponding elemental attack. These are probably top utility in PvE, second only to Battle Heal in quests where extra refresh is needed. The holiday heals are still cheap and efficient.

                The new 6th ring abilities released in JPUL look awesome. Greater arc heal has the same heal to cost ratio as Greater aid (decent) and a much better cooldown than any of the other area heals. That's not even mentioning its fantastic utility. This will probably replace either Greater aid, Cleanse healing, or Area recovery in my sets, depending on the demands of the quest.

                Maybe the two party spells aren't totally 100% amazing like Greater arc heal, but they're still going to be really useful. Holy circle is a weaker, slower Dignity that carries some extra cost gaining utility. Sacrifice heal is a 30% HP sac on a very short cooldown for a party heal. Strictly based on heal numbers, Holy circle is meh. Sacrifice casts basically for free, since it appears that the sacrifice happens, then the heal happens, then the self-debuff happens. The amount of HP you can put out with this is just amazing - slightly better than Greater aid in a 5 person party and twice as efficient in United Offense. The biggest downside is the risk of being locked out of casting your party heal when you need it most, as i'm sure you don't get a line of credit on that 30% HP.

                Enchantments also impact rankings, in theory. Only two spells (Recover and Greater healing) allow you to go down the cooldown reduction path, while all of the other heals only allow AP boost or cost reduction. The former two heals also both get a cost reduction option.

                AP BOOST PATH

                single heals AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Heal 90 10 5 9 18
                Cure 140 12 7 11.67 20
                area heals AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Area recovery 100 16 20 18.75 15
                Area heal 70 12 15 17.5 14
                Area cure 110 20 22 16.5 15
                party heal AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Dignity (5) 90 20 30 22.5 15
                Dignity (9) 90 20 30 40.5 27














                COST REDUCTION PATH

                single heals AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Heal 70 6 5 11.67 14
                Recover 90 7 7 12.86 12.86
                Cure 110 8 7 13.75 15.71
                area heals AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Area recovery 70 12 20 17.5 10.5
                Area heal 50 8 15 18.75 10
                Greater healing 70 11 17 19.09 12.35
                Area cure 80 16 22 15 10.9
                party heal AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Dignity (5) 60 16 30 18.75 10
                Dignity (9) 60 16 30 33.75 18

















                COOLDOWN REDUCTION PATH

                single heal AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Recover 90 11 5 8.18 18
                area heal AP cost cooldown AP/cost AP/sec
                Greater healing 70 15 12 14 17.5







                One potential use of enchantments is to reduce spell costs across the board and take the Stellar God Relic (Recovery Blessing proc) to reduce cooldowns. The cheaper spells should make the loss of a main slot cost recovery less painful, while the new main slot proc can help reduce spell cooldowns. It's inconsistent to trust RNGesus to manage your heals this way, but sometimes we must take a leap of faith.

                Otherwise, leaning heavily on Cost Recovery procs is still the way to go. Even if you take cost reduction paths on all of your spells, a CR proc will make them even more cost efficient. The cheaper the spell is, the more effective (relatively) that extra 5 cost will be. In this case definitely bring shorter cooldowns to take advantage of all the extra cost you're going to have. If Cure didn't take a full second or more for the green numbers to pop up, i'd consider trying an old Heal / Recover / Cure build for pvp. At cost levels of 6, 7, and 8 you would basically be casting for free. Sadly, the days of successful heal attrition are long gone.
                Hot Mess Express 2086796674

                Comment

                Working...
                X