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Attention Salty Soldiers

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  • Mirabelle
    started a topic Attention Salty Soldiers

    Attention Salty Soldiers

    Intro
    There have been unprecedented levels of Soldier-salt since 5th ring. Some of it is justified, and some of it is not. It's time to look at things in depth, because I'm tired of seeing the same threads over and over. \(=A=\)

    Some History
    Anyway, yes. Most Soldiers got shafted when they built their character according to 4th ring abilities and the passives from rings 1-4. Soldiers have a right to complain about being misled into gear cost reallocation. If you remember, Dual Sword and Divine Smash used to scale more heavily off DEF than ATK before they changed it to a 50/50 split. Since Dual Sword's burst really blew away any other Soldier attack skills from before it came out (and there were no Dual-Sword proc weapons), Soldiers were very strongly encouraged to run tons of head/body gear for full DEF and ignore weapons. Then suddenly more ATK-based moves and Sword passives come out. Suddenly your build looks wrong. That is a legit grievance and you can be salty about it. No one will blame you for that.

    But Now
    However! People need to chill on calling the current state of Soldier so terrible. Apparently I need to break this down because these complaints aren't going away. If you build for the new sword passives, Soldier Burst/DPS is roughly equivalent to Mage and Lancer. (Nothing is comparable to Archer, so we're going to ignore that for now.)
    There are two considerations when looking at a class's damage potential: The abilities themselves and the potential stat totals of the classes.

    Comparison of Abilities
    If you compare the abilities of 5th ring Soldier to 5th ring Mage and Lancer, they are actually comparable. With small differences. Look at the abilities themselves for a second and ignore the stats behind the classes for now. I will get to the stats later. Assume you have a 100k "offense potential" that will be used in the damage calculation.
    Key
    O = Offense = 100k (as an example)
    Pow = Ability Power
    CD = Cooldown
    B = Burst (damage per use) (O * 0.4 * Pow/100)
    CE = Cost Efficiency (damage per cost) (Burst / Cost)
    DPS = well... it's DPS (damage per second) (Burst / Cooldown)








    Mage: Undermine Pow=180 CD=6 COST=12
    B=72
    CE=6
    DPS=12
    Soldier: Antagonize Pow=180 CD=6 COST=12
    B=72
    CE=6
    DPS=12
    Lancer: Severe Sting Pow=170/220 CD=7 COST=12
    B=68/88
    CE=5.66/7.33
    DPS=9.71/12.57
    Analysis:
    Undermine is the same as Antagonize, except it's 10% healing vs Taunt/ailment resist.
    Severe Sting is a little worse than the other two unless the target is in Break, but once they are it's better than both. It causes Break, too. Seems fair.

    BONUS: Soldier: Divine Smash Pow=150 CD=7 COST=12
    B=60
    CE=5
    DPS=8.57
    Analysis:
    Divine Smash is weaker than 5th ring skills, but you get Blind sometimes and aggro. Not amazing, but not horrible.
    Mage: Calamity Pow=140/220 CD=7 COST=11
    B=56/88
    CE=5.09/8
    DPS=8/12.57
    Soldier: Rage Slash Pow=160 CD=7 COST=12
    B=64
    CE=5.33
    DPS=9.14
    Lancer: Death Pierce Pow=150/200 CD=11 COST=14 (secret +50 AP while in Break, thanks @LaconicLeaf)
    B=60/80
    CE=4.29/5.71
    DPS=5.45/7.27
    Analysis:
    Calamity has the best of everything, but only if you combo it. And it has no additional effects.
    Death Pierce is only better than Rage Slash if the target is in Break, and even then it has lower DPS than Rage Slash. Death Pierce is capable of doing normal damage to super high-def targets, while Rage Slash is unaffected by defensive procs and reflect stacks. All of them have niche uses or conditions that make them outshine each other in different ways. Seems fair. (Btw for the Rage Slash haters, consider that Mages don't have a single way to cut through damage down and reflect at the moment. :c)
    Mage: Blood Oath Pow=110/165 CD=10 COST=15
    B=88/132
    CE=5.87/8.8
    DPS=8.8/13.2
    Soldier: Dual Impact Pow=130/140 CD=9 COST=15
    B=104/112
    CE=6.93/7.47
    DPS=11.56/12.44
    Lancer: Cross Assault Pow=130/140/180/190 CD=10 COST=16
    B=104/112/144/152
    CE=6.5/7/9/9.5
    DPS=10.4/11.2/14.4/15.2
    Analysis:
    Dual Impact outperforms Blood Oath unless the mage is missing some health and it outperforms Cross Assault unless the target is in Break. Standalone Blood Oath is the worst skill, but gets some healing as an additional effect. Cross Assault is nasty once the target is in Break, but that's kind of a Lancer's identity. Seems fair.

    BONUS: Soldier: Dual Sword Pow=120 CD=10 COST=18
    B=96
    CE=5.33
    DPS=9.6
    Analysis:
    A bit outclassed by 5th ring skills. The only thing it has going for it is aggro, and that it still beats full-health Blood Oath in both Burst and DPS.
    Special Bonus:
    Soldier: Counter Strike Pow=250 CD=12 COST=5
    B=100
    CE=20
    DPS=8.33
    Analysis:
    I think I can let that Cost-efficiency value speak for itself. (Wow that was a nerdy thing to say..) And it protects your allies in niche situations in GvG? Oh my. Also, check out that ability power. It's softly whispering something. Can you hear it? I think it's saying "Please crit with me..."
    Can this still proc Cost Recovery up to 4 times? My guild's soldiers have been busy/lazy and haven't tested it for me after I asked them, lol. x)

    Comparison of Potential Stat Totals
    But the abilities don't matter if classes can't have the same offense potential, right? Well, thanks to new 5th ring passives, they can. Here's a summary of relevant class passives for Mage, Soldier, and Lancer.

    Lancer
    Spears: +48%
    Other Atk Gear: +20%
    Atk +3000
    Helm Def: +32%
    Armor Def: +32%
    Other Gear Def: +17%
    Def +3000

    Mage
    Staves: +48%
    Other Matk Gear: +20%
    Matk +3000
    Hat mdef: +20%
    Clothing Mdef: +24%
    Other Gear Mdef: +17%
    Mdef +3000

    Soldier
    Swords: +48%
    Other Atk Gear: +20%
    Atk +3000
    Helms: +32%
    Armors: +44%
    Other Def Gear: +17%
    Def +3000

    See that Swords and Lances both have +48% ATK for their respective classes?
    Are you worried about Swords having less ATK than Lances just by raw stats?
    Well, let's look at the UL wiki.
    28-Cost Solar Sword at Max Infuse with +99 = 6374 ATK
    28-Cost Solar Lance at Max Infuse with +99 = 6697 ATK
    Adding passives...
    Sword = 9433.52
    Lance = 9911.56
    That's a difference of 478.04 per weapon.
    So with 7 weapons you're looking at Soldiers having about 3-4k less ATK than Lancers.
    Is that significant? In my opinion, when you're at 100k ATK or above... No. It is not signficant.
    (continued due to length)

  • muda
    replied
    Mirabelle you forgot blood oath hits twice :^), it should be 220/330 for damage, because each hit is base 110/165

    excellent guide!

    Leave a comment:


  • SpazPro
    commented on 's reply
    Gang
    The hard quest bosses can't purify nearly as fast as you can debuff. IF you do it right.

    But yes. The big problem is that no one ever knows about offtanking, and you have to be a smart player to do it right.

  • chaoticHarmony
    commented on 's reply
    Do you find it helpful when you're right next to the soldier and you're squishy af.

  • [WOC] Fenrir
    commented on 's reply
    Tips to end the salt and become seasoned.

  • Gang
    commented on 's reply
    Easy quest doesn't need off tank, hard quest boss can get rid of de-buff quickly.

    Most problematic of all, you need to education people on offtank. Just a tough life at this time.

  • SpazPro
    replied
    I need to finish the guide i've been working on...

    No matter. Offtanking gets way more hate than it should. Appetently people don't like me debuffing every enemy to -80/-80 in seconds.

    Leave a comment:


  • SpazPro
    commented on 's reply
    -40attak/-40mattak?!

    Forget that! Do you find it helpful on quests when a Soldier is spamming Vanquish on the boss, keeping it constantly at -8 ATK/MATK? Because it's more than possible. And infinitely helpful. I would know.

  • SpazPro
    commented on 's reply
    This.

  • HotMessExpress
    commented on 's reply
    Princess Diana i believe it's weak. they'll still nuke themselves

  • Princess Diana
    commented on 's reply
    HotMessExpress unless they have reflect reduction armor

  • HotMessExpress
    commented on 's reply
    Just equip a dozen magic reflects and let the mages nuke themselves

  • Amber
    commented on 's reply
    Isn't that KD

  • Amber
    commented on 's reply
    Unless they nerf deadly archers will always be op

  • Nox Fenrir
    replied
    Originally posted by Kayane View Post
    This reminds me of the days where lancers complained about being so weak xD I feel your pain
    But I'm kinda glad they made soldiers do less damage they should be tanks not berserkers! I know tanking may not be relevant right now but I'm sure maybe they'll adjust some stuff eventually to make soldiers super tanks!! Maybe one day soldiers will be able to absorb AOEs for the whole party or something you know? That would be amazing!
    But for the meantime we cant do either. *looks at meatball* Now if I were made a true tank and could survive magic id be ok with my attack being cut.
    Last edited by Nox Fenrir; 03-22-2017, 11:41 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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