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  • Mirabelle
    commented on 's reply
    PetPet Calamity should always be used in combo, I agree. It's not especially difficult, but the fact that it can't be used standalone is something, even if it's small. Calamity also has no special effects unlike Rage Slash and Death Pierce. That's why I think they're comparable.

    You could argue that the trade off between mage/soldier for the elemental boost is Soldiers having extra health.

    I think whether you're ''tanking'' or ''dps'' depends not only on your Cost allocation but also what abilities you decide to bring to quest/battle.
    Last edited by Mirabelle; 10-06-2016, 07:52 PM.

  • Mirabelle
    commented on 's reply
    Agreed that Calamity should always be used with combo.

    However, by that logic, you could say that Mages are just Lancers that can't cause Break. It's an oversimplification.

  • Mirabelle
    commented on 's reply
    @LaconicLeaf
    Good question about Attack Stance, Basic Attack, Swift Smash, Wizard Strike. I was focused on 5th ring, and I haven't looked into those. If you'd like to do the homework on comparing them, be my guest! I was mostly concerned about people bashing 5th ring soldier skills and advocating cost setups that don't run max weapons.

    Fair point about Monster cost-efficiency. Using more CE monsters might give you room to equip an extra helmet, which changes things slightly. That could boost all 3 of the Soldier builds over Lancer/Mage a little bit. I don't have the energy to redo the math on it at the moment, though.
    EDIT: Hmm, nevermind. I think that would only affect Hybrid and Glass.
    Last edited by Mirabelle; 10-06-2016, 09:02 PM.

  • MegaBlues
    replied
    So you're essentially saying that Clerics don't have a way to DPS effectively anymore by cross-classing.

    Boo.

    Leave a comment:


  • LaconicLeaf
    replied
    *raises hand*

    Umm, where does that leave Attack Stance, Basic Attack, Swift Smash, and Wizard Strike? Those skills also contribute to DPS as well... Also, don't forget Lancers can equip Soul Destroyer as a 23 cost monster that blows 25 cost monsters' cost efficiency out of the water. When +198, Soul Destroyer is more cost efficient than even +198 28 cost monsters (but not the 29 cost ones).

    I'm aware you're using 6 Vol&Renas as a way to show maximum ATK, but it's a terrible idea in practice, since ATK investment has diminishing returns with low hitcount attacks that already have high AP damage. Similar to what Ace mentioned before (open the comments here, reply #12), higher cost monsters aren't always better for non-Archer classes, and cheaper cost monsters like Peliasa and Soul Destroyer should be considered, allowing you more room for Armors/Helms.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hatsya Souji
    commented on 's reply
    Pat my back, since I tend to roleplay soldier as a Swordsman class, not to defend peeps.

  • Hatsya Souji
    commented on 's reply
    I'm about to build that Hybrid build, since I also used to play Lancer too.

  • SpazPro
    replied
    I smell yesterdays conversation in this...

    Leave a comment:


  • Chronic
    replied
    No matter how you put it a DPS soldier is just a worse version of a lancer. Also, if you are ever casting calamity without a combo you are doing it wrong.
    Last edited by Chronic; 10-06-2016, 05:59 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cherif
    replied
    I would never use 7weapons as soldier..full atk is not tank

    Leave a comment:


  • PetPet
    replied
    I think you're underestimating calamity a bit. It's not like it's hard to combo that after Undermine or Blood Oath, so it should always be hitting for 220 ap, a good 37.5% higher ap than soldier's rage slash. Also, the free 3-stack elemental boost passives is good for another 15% extra damage against any non-neutral enemy.

    And comparing lancers to soldiers... the good thing about lancers isn't the damage, it's break. If a lancer couldn't break, it would be a pretty terrible class.

    Anyway, I get what you're saying as far as it's still possible for soldiers to do good damage if they forego defense and build purely for dps, but even if that was "balanced", is that really what soldiers want? To be a glass cannon? I don't think anyone picks the soldier class with that in mind, but if attacks don't scale off of defense, that's what they're forced into doing. The fact that they scaled off defense before and don't now, when most of the community didn't see it as a problem, is sort of a slap in the face.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mirabelle
    replied
    COST ALLOCATION
    If you want to be able to get the most out of the new attacks AND the old ones, run 7/x/7/x. You can get more power out of Vanquish/CounterStrike/DualImpact/RageSlash if you put more cost into monsters, or more power out of DivineSmash/DualSword/Antagonize if you put more cost into helmets. Monsters give you flexibility and utility, while helmets give you more survivability.

    Either way, you're going to be okay. A nice option when you're using ATK-only abilities is that you can use low-DEF anti-magic gear (usually hats/clothing) without affecting your offensive ability. A Soldier with 7-9 Magic Reflect procs is going to be tricky for a Mage or Archer to take down.

    Full Example
    Gosh, you're still skeptical? Fine. Let's mock up some characters and compare, alright?

    Level 120 = 608 Cost
    Level 130 = 640 Cost
    Endgame Soldier
    The Gear:
    Twilight Blade (29 Cost, max+99 at 7109) | 7109 * 1.48 = 10521.32 ATK
    Grimm Wolf Coat: (29 Cost, max+99 at 7960) | 7960 * 1.44 = 11462.4 DEF
    Grimm Wolf Helm: (29 Cost, max+99 at 7960) | 7960 * 1.32 = 10507.2 DEF
    Vol & Rena (34 Cost, max+99 at 4310)
    4310 * 1.2 = 5172 ATK
    4310 * 1.17 = 5042.7 DEF
    Fire Valk (25 Cost, max+99 at 3410)
    3410 * 1.2 = 4092 ATK
    3410 * 1.17 = 3989.7 DEF
    Apollo (30 Cost, max+99 at 3910)
    3910 * 1.2 = 4692 ATK
    3910 * 1.17 = 4574.7 DEF

    7/6/7/2 Soldier
    Weapon Cost: 203 (7x Twilight Blade)
    Helm Cost: 174 (6x Grimm Wolf Helm) (can't fit a 7th 29-cost helmet)
    Armor Cost: 203 (7x Grimm Wolf Armor)
    Monster Cost: 59 (Vol&Rena + Fire Valk)
    Total Cost: 639/640
    ATK from Swords after passives: 73649.24
    ATK from Executioner Shared Trait: 3000
    ATK from Monsters: 9264
    Total ATK: 85913.24
    DEF from Armor after passives: 80236.8
    DEF from Helms after passives: 63043.2
    DEF from Royal Protector Shared Trait: 3000
    DEF from Monsters: 9032.4
    Total DEF: 155312.4
    ATK Ability Offensive Power: 85913.24
    ATK+DEF Ability Offensive Power (Avg of Atk&Def): 120612.82

    7/2/7/6 Soldier
    Weapon Cost: 203 (7x Twilight Blade)
    Helm Cost: 58/59 (2x Grimm Wolf Helm)
    Armor Cost: 203 (7x Grimm Wolf Armor)
    Monster Cost: 175 (Fire Valk + Apollox5)
    ATK from Swords after passives: 73649.24
    ATK from Executioner Shared Trait: 3000
    ATK from Monsters: 27552
    Total ATK : 104201.24
    DEF from Armor after passives: 80236.8
    DEF from Helms after passives: 21014.4
    DEF from Royal Protector Shared Trait: 3000
    DEF from Monsters: 24523.2
    Total DEF: 128774.4
    ATK Ability Offensive Power: 104201.24
    ATK+DEF Ability Offensive Power (Avg of Atk&Def): 116487.82

    7/2/5/7 Soldier
    Weapon Cost: 203 (7x Twilight Blade)
    Helm Cost: 58/59 (2x Grimm Wolf Helm)
    Armor Cost: 145/149 (5x Grimm Wolf Armor)
    Monster Cost: 229 (Fire Valk + 6x VolRena)
    Total Cost: 640/640 (with 5 leftover for filler gear)
    ATK from Swords after passives: 73649.24
    ATK from Executioner Shared Trait: 3000
    ATK from Monsters: 35124
    Total ATK: 111773.24
    DEF from Armor after passives: 57312
    DEF from Helms after passives: 21014.4
    DEF from Royal Protector Shared Trait: 3000
    DEF from Monsters: 34245.9
    Total DEF: 115572.3
    ATK Ability Offensive Power: 111773.24
    ATK+DEF Ability Offensive Power (Avg of Atk&Def): 113672.77
    Endgame Lancer
    The Gear:
    Twilight Spear (29 Cost, max+99 at 7471) | 7471 * 1.48 = 11057.08 ATK
    Vol & Rena (34 Cost, max+99 at 4310)
    4310 * 1.2 = 5172 ATK
    4310 * 1.17 = 5042.7 DEF
    Fire Valk (25 Cost, max+99 at 3410)
    3410 * 1.2 = 4092 ATK
    3410 * 1.17 = 3989.7 DEF
    Apollo (30 Cost, max+99 at 3910)
    3910 * 1.2 = 4692 ATK
    3910 * 1.17 = 4574.7 DEF

    7/4/4/7 Lancer
    Weapon Cost: 203 (7x Twilight Spear)
    Helm Cost: doesn't matter
    Armor Cost: doesn't matter
    Monster Cost: 229 (Fire Valk + 6x VolRena)
    Total Cost: doesn't matter
    Atk from Lances after passives: 77399.56
    Atk from Executioner Shared Trait: 3000
    Atk from Monsters: 35124
    Total ATK: 115523.56
    ATK Ability Offensive Power: 115523.56
    Mock Character Builds Summary & Analysis
    Lancer build for reference: (Should be equivalent for Mage)
    7/x/x/7 - "Glass" Lancer
    ATK Abil Offense: 115.5k

    There are 3 Soldier builds I looked at:
    7/6/7/2 - "Tank" Soldier
    ATK Abil Offense: 85.9k
    ATK+DEF Abil Offense: 120.6k
    Analysis: Noticeably worse with ATK abilities than the other builds, but base offense with ATK+DEF abilities is slightly stronger than Lancer/Mage base offense. Except for Antagonize, the ATK+DEF abilities are a little worse though, so that balances out. Low monster utility. Hardest to kill with 13 Defensive Skills. Less monsters means this build is more gem-expensive to max out due to infusions. Cannot wear clothing and still retain offensive potential. If switching class, cost setup is not so great for a Crystal Breaker but should be fine for a Cleric.

    7/2/7/6 - "Hybrid" Soldier
    ATK Abil Offense: 104.2k
    ATK+DEF Abil Offense: 116.4k
    Already much stronger with ATK abilities. Only slightly weaker than 7/6/7/2 when using ATK+DEF abilities if using all Fire monsters. Slightly better than 7/2/5/7 with ATK+DEF abilities. Has the flexibility to ignore ATK+DEF abilities and wear clothing or use other elements. 9 Defensive Skills. If switching class, this cost setup is okay for a Crystal Breaker.

    7/2/5/7 - "Glass" Soldier
    ATK Abil Offense: 111.7k
    ATK+DEF Abil Offense: 113.6k
    Best build for ATK abilities. Base offense for either kind of ability is only slightly weaker than Lancer/Mage base offense. Only slightly weaker than the other Soldier builds when using ATK+DEF abilities if using all Fire monsters. Has the flexibility to ignore ATK+DEF abilities and wear clothing or use other elements. Easiest to take down with 7 Defensive Skills. If switching class, this is the best cost setup for a Crystal Breaker.
    I didn't look at 2/7/7/x or 4/7/7/x because giving up those weapon passives and procs looks wasteful. Someone else can figure it out and compare if they want.
    Now that you have offense values, you can compare damage between Lancer/Mage and the different Soldier builds if you want. The number of hits between all the abilities listed above are similar, so they're going to be affected by flat AP mods about the same. The higher power ones will get a little bit more oomph out of crits, but in general things are going to be relatively close if you consider their extra effects and conditions.

    Which of these Soldier builds is best? That's up for debate. I'll end with one last thing... the damage of an endgame Glass Soldier's Crit Counter Strike.
    111.7 * 0.4 * 2.5 * 1.55 = 173.135
    That's 173k damage with no elemental bonuses and no buffs. For 5 cost.

    Leave a comment:

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