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Soldier class weak in all areas

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    #16
    They should make soldiers tankier like maybe have a skill that puts a permanent barrier or something and change the aggro system so that soldiers can absorb all incoming damage including AOE damage. It would be amazing for pvp and a good way to obliterate the boring oneshot uni meta if we could have some kinda skill soldiers can trigger at the start of the round that lets them tank all incoming damage for maybe like 20-30 seconds or something. Even in death the soldier would receive all damage from uni making him like a sacrifice or something for the rest of the party to counter uni. I miss counter uni days..

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      #17
      I think once soldiers start getting the opening concentration armor from the sacred crystal event and go double null magic up front, they'll last at least 30 seconds longer in pve, so you've got that to look forward to.

      Comment


      • Wanperc
        Wanperc commented
        Editing a comment
        why wont they just go rook.

      • the5th1
        the5th1 commented
        Editing a comment
        because they are soldiers

      • McScootersaurus
        McScootersaurus commented
        Editing a comment
        Wanperc because they serve different roles. And people are stubborn. I know because I am.

      #18
      Saying that I am a soldier main and I’m about 575k gs, I get kicked fairly often from quest lol. Sb easily kills me in PvP even though I have 175k mdef, I’ve died to mages with less atk than my def and have still struggles to kill another person or even survive long if Sb is used. We have knights loyalty but even if we used it in PvP there would be no purpose of using against mages..
      Sora-2100663522

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        #19
        Soldier suffers class weakness against the class with the current omg-so-broken attack (mage / star burst) but this is a problem with the design of star burst, not a problem with soldier.

        Soldier is still one of the most versatile classes in both pvp and pve. For a long time they were THE op class in pvp. Just because that's not the case anymore doesn't mean they're bad or useless. In every area of the game, I'd rather party with somebody who knows what they're doing.

        The class is less dummy-proof than some others, which is part of why soldier has a bad reputation: you notice the dumb soldiers more because they are useless. A bad archer (or lancer, berserker, etc) is still going to be able to contribute via damage, while a bad soldier isn't doing much of anything.

        It's unfortunate that "I kick all soldiers" is a thing, but anybody who exhibits class bias like that probably isn't very good at unison league.
        Hot Mess Express 2086796674

        Comment


        • |Atlås|
          |Atlås| commented
          Editing a comment
          Couldn't agree more ^

        • RyuzakiKyojin
          RyuzakiKyojin commented
          Editing a comment
          Exactly my thoughts tbh

        #20
        Originally posted by gummy View Post
        No... Soldiers still have a place in PVP, and I might even say they are top-tier for pvp (good soldiers, not defensive ones). In front line, doing more damage than the other person doesn't matter if your attack is faster and does enough to kill.
        In the case of soldiers, they have the shortest cooldown on their Rage slash.
        Comparing piercer skills:
        Soldier - 7s - fast animation - medium damage - double proc weapon available
        Lancer - 8s - fast animation - low/medium damage - double proc weapon not available
        Mage - 8s - slow animation - high damage - double proc weapon available but very rare
        Zerker - 8s - fast animation - medium damage - double proc weapon available

        Yes, that 1 second matters a lot. On top of that, they still have the highest hp in the game. Also, since many top players are concentrating on magic nulls to prevent mage/archer/zerk/treasure, phys-based attacks are actually becoming more effective than before.
        Lol highest hp? Who cares about highest hp when a mage far weaker than you can ohko you without null.

        Who cares about having a 1 second faster animation when it takes 2-3x more hits to kill a mage.

        Oh you can get two magic nulls you say? Right mage can get two physical nulls as well. So instead of 2-3 rage slash, it will take 4-6 rage slash to kill them on average.

        Mage will take 1-2 starburst to kill you with 50% chance to null. Oh you can focus mage with multiple players! Hey here is a hint its a poor tradeoff to need multiple players to kill someone quickly vs needing only one player. Basic math.

        Again this is why I haven't talked about this in a while too many people who make nonsensical arguments.
        Last edited by felixng2016; 08-21-2018, 05:38 AM.
        Name: [FE]Nix
        ID: 2070886296
        GS:800k

        Comment


        • gummy
          gummy commented
          Editing a comment
          Yep, soldiers are very prevalent in top 10 guilds.
          They wouldn't use soldiers if they weren't advantageous.
          I agree that in a 1v1 match mage vs soldier, the mage would win, since mages are supposed to be the counter to soldiers. Starburst falls in line with the whole mantra of the mage, that is ''hit slow, hit HARD, spend all your mana, and die if anything tries to tickle you''
          However, even though mages are supposed to counter soldiers, a top tier soldier would waste a top tier mage in 1v1, simply because they're faster.
          I played around with berserker's Raging Pain skill, and while it's not the exact same skill as Rage Slash, it also has 160 ability power. With Raging Pain, I was able to consistently deal 300-500k damage on enemies (under 500k). The reason I no longer use Raging is because Kill Dance does far more damage - 300-400k x5, and my team really needed more crystal damage.
          If you want to beat mages consistently, try knights loyalty and then laugh as the mage has to wait 8 seconds to recast.

        • Faust
          Faust commented
          Editing a comment
          (old) Balancing Thread

          Figured enough time has passed, so I made the votes public.

          Pointless rehashing the /exact/ same arguments from months ago, especially when they feel the way they do.
          Last edited by Faust; 08-23-2018, 03:34 AM.

        • Faust
          Faust commented
          Editing a comment
          Oh man. It's painful to read through that thread.

        #21
        Originally posted by HotMessExpress View Post
        Soldier suffers class weakness against the class with the current omg-so-broken attack (mage / star burst) but this is a problem with the design of star burst, not a problem with soldier.

        Soldier is still one of the most versatile classes in both pvp and pve. For a long time they were THE op class in pvp. Just because that's not the case anymore doesn't mean they're bad or useless. In every area of the game, I'd rather party with somebody who knows what they're doing.

        The class is less dummy-proof than some others, which is part of why soldier has a bad reputation: you notice the dumb soldiers more because they are useless. A bad archer (or lancer, berserker, etc) is still going to be able to contribute via damage, while a bad soldier isn't doing much of anything.

        It's unfortunate that "I kick all soldiers" is a thing, but anybody who exhibits class bias like that probably isn't very good at unison league.
        No soldier has always been a mediocre class for pve. This game is a damage race where tanking does literally nothing and all bosses have piercer and % moves making procs and high defensive stats virtually useless anyway.. High level content you need dps over utility. Low level content you rather have dps too to make things faster.

        Soldier only had pvp going for them. And ever since starburst has been buffed pvp for soldier is basically pray your magic null procs or die in a few seconds. Hence why i barely play anymore and don't spent a cent on this game anymore despite being a former dolphin/small whale. There is literally no point in soldiers, their utility is not worth the high chance of them being one shot in pvp in a few seconds, they aren't good for cb either and certainly not for pve.
        Name: [FE]Nix
        ID: 2070886296
        GS:800k

        Comment


        • HotMessExpress
          HotMessExpress commented
          Editing a comment
          Mechanically soldier isn't great for pve damage, but the utility is still good, and a soldier who gears properly (elements/etc) will still outperform most players.

          I don't have ''a class'' other than cleric, and sometimes I play soldier because sometimes soldier is the right choice.

        • gummy
          gummy commented
          Editing a comment
          I've actually run mobius with a utility soldier instead of a cleric... and I prefer the soldier. But, most soldiers join with barely any resist or elemental attack... and then they bring 3 damage skills and cheer...or heavens breath lol

        • felixng2016
          felixng2016 commented
          Editing a comment
          Running soldier in mobius is not optimal. If you wanna go 5 dps in mobius there are better options.
          Soldier doesn't really provide anything particularly worthwhile. They have heroic which is nice but not a must and inspired which is also nice but really neither is needed at all and the increased dps from other classes like archer, mage, berserker, lancer, etc is more worthwhile. Other classes like th and rook arguably have more use utility wise too.

          No clue why anyone would want a utility soldier in mobius honestly. Mobius is all about doing a load of dmg very fast to destroy the waves quickly for more time. Also you want to kill the waves fast or you will die. There is no use for utility soldier unless you want a low score.

        #22
        Originally posted by Kayane View Post
        They should make soldiers tankier like maybe have a skill that puts a permanent barrier or something and change the aggro system so that soldiers can absorb all incoming damage including AOE damage. It would be amazing for pvp and a good way to obliterate the boring oneshot uni meta if we could have some kinda skill soldiers can trigger at the start of the round that lets them tank all incoming damage for maybe like 20-30 seconds or something. Even in death the soldier would receive all damage from uni making him like a sacrifice or something for the rest of the party to counter uni. I miss counter uni days..
        The barrier thing is a non-factor for soldiers in pvp. Ooh nice barrier, here have a starburst from a mage half your gs and die.

        As for the absorb all damage, Rooks already have that skill.
        Name: [FE]Nix
        ID: 2070886296
        GS:800k

        Comment


        • Kayane
          Kayane commented
          Editing a comment
          But can rooks absorb AOE that cuts a percentage of all players HP in pve? And rooks can't absorb uni damage cuz the window is too small they can give soldiers an enhanced version and maybe something like.. debuff the stats of anyone who attacks you

        • niconutela
          niconutela commented
          Editing a comment
          Kayane not sure what you mean by <absorb> but rook can tank % skill with devoted, didn't saw if it work with blue % (most likely does) but at least it work with the red %, and it will be the only one to have the hp reduced when it happen

        • Kayane
          Kayane commented
          Editing a comment
          niconutela I meant for soldiers to have a skill where they can take all the incoming damage for a longer time than rook maybe like make aggro so that every attack including uni goes to soldier

          It would kill the oneshot uni since at the beginning of the round all the soldier would have to do is cast aggro and he would be the only one to die to the uni lol

        #23
        As far as I'm concerned all the soldiers have become Rooks. The Soldier is dead

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          #24
          Im not a main soldier but I do try to sub all the classes and I do believe I have a good understanding of the game.(semi-educated UL noob). That being said I have to agree with everything Felix and Chobi are saying.

          PVE
          Archer, Mages, and Zerkers provide excellent dps.
          Lancers provide consistent break.
          Treasure Hunters increase drop rate, can gives double time rewards, Heart of Fortune is MR and PL in 1 move that also gives cost and with all That Hunters can also Break.
          Rooks is the claas to bring if you need tanking
          Cleric... imo clerics are still a staple in high level PVE content. although they are no longer needed for things like ordeals try clearing 35cost or 40cost quest without a cleric.

          Anything you need for PVE these 7 classes can do it. Im not going to say that soldiers dont have any use in PVE but what i will say is I have never started a quest and thought to myself...man I wish we had a soldier in this party.....

          Comment


          • |Atlås|
            |Atlås| commented
            Editing a comment
            HAHAHA where is Ryu on forum i wanna tag him
            But yes, overall soldiers are rarely needed in PVE unless for something very specific for a particular strat.

          • the5th1
            the5th1 commented
            Editing a comment
            I`ll Send him a screenshot for you Attie

          • RyuzakiKyojin
            RyuzakiKyojin commented
            Editing a comment
            I do exist here you know.

            And yeah 5th, now I do PVE as Berserker because it's a lot better in terms of dps. And I've gotten kicked from parties only once (since like 5 days of questing).

          #25
          Originally posted by BenkeiEX View Post
          As far as I'm concerned all the soldiers have become Rooks. The Soldier is dead
          Even as a soldier myself when I see another soldier I am like meh.

          Soldiers just suck in pve point blank lol.
          Name: [FE]Nix
          ID: 2070886296
          GS:800k

          Comment


            #26
            Originally posted by BenkeiEX View Post
            As far as I'm concerned all the soldiers have become Rooks. The Soldier is dead
            Pretty much but I don't particularly care for rook so I am just indifferent right now. Hopefully they do something. I remember they said they were considering nerfing starburst but nothing came of it.

            Soldier is nothing more than a trash pve character and a mage punching bag atm.
            Name: [FE]Nix
            ID: 2070886296
            GS:800k

            Comment


              #27
              I’ve been saying for a while that soldiers need to go back to having atk/def debuff like the move we had before. It would make us at least slightly more desirable. I also have to say, I know many people built up mdef to prevent mages from one-shotting, so the starburst buff really hurt soldiers usefulness again and sets in general. I personally think it’s a bad game design to have any one class be able to one shot the other. I’ve had mages one shot me with lower gs when I’ve had the mdef and procs that should have saved me from the attacks. I can’t one shot an archer. Also yeah I had elemental attack up and my dmg was actually pretty viable and I ran a set with heroic spirit for purification and no one gave me a chance. My set rounded out to 540k with my elemental advantage but even 400k parties kicked me out without hesitation.. anyway, despite complaining, solider class would be far more useful if we were debuff, cheer and aggro instead of just cheer and aggro. Bringing a monster or enemy to -8 actually makes people want you in their quest believe it or not. it’s like it almost makes up for average dmg

              Comment


              • gummy
                gummy commented
                Editing a comment
                People kicked you due to their ignorance.
                I'd love to see some sort of debuff skill or even a skill that gives the soldier ''hero'' for 10 seconds or so.

              #28
              (I'm late but whatever.)

              What's a lot of people miss is that the issue is less about soldiers not having any good points, and more about playability. It's obvious soldiers have their good points, otherwise no one would have invested in them, but you know what I'm hearing a lot of? 'Soldiers do this well but _____ does it better.' Which would be fine if it wasn't for every. single. thing. The fact of the matter is the class was never the easiest to play, but part of the charm was if you stuck with it, focused, and invested in it, you had the joy of becoming highly competent and invaluable in PvP.

              I think what a lot of people don't realize how so many of the changes over time, the addition of new classes, and the following changes in the meta impacted the usefulness of soldiers in PvP, cumulatively. Sure, lancers had always done the whole atk stat thing better, but when the focus ****ed that way, it wasn't the worst route, since archers were usually the biggest threat in the FL and being there as a counter was pretty common. Now, if we see crazy scary damage in the FL there's a good chance it'll be a zerker or a mage which is less than ideal, especially since soldiers loose out building too mdef heavy. Abilities had already moved away from building completely defensively, but for those who stuck with it, going from soldier to rook wasn't too far of a stretch. Even though getting to uni first is still a big deal, the real stars in that are no longer soldiers, but THs.
              Saying 'hey this one move is still good, especially in this one situation' only serves to further highlight the problem; how outdated what's considered good on a soldier is, and how incredibly niche a situation has to be for a soldier to be considered an effective option, much less the most effective option.

              Some of the comparisons to the current situation are utterly laughable at best. I mean, clerics are still absolutely vital in so many cases, in both PvP and PvE. Even pre-SB buff, playing mage wasn't all that bad. You were underwhelming in PvP but solid for PvE, and though you might get kicked for a full archer team, it was pretty rare. (I still remember the joy of one-shotting soldiers and managing to avoid hitting their reflects...)

              That said, I was never that up in arms about the SB buff, since it took a class that was inoptimal in PvP and gave it a game breaking ability that was a pain in the butt to everyone. Sure, soldiers had to deal with the class they were weakest against becoming incredibly strong, but since soldiers only shone in PvP when built right, the fact that the newer classes can do a lot of what they did effectively pretty hurt almost as much.

              Right now, playing pally is essentially being that kid that's always picked last for teams, but instead of being picked last, you just never get picked at all. Even worse is that the lack of value in PvE isn't so much that people aren't playing smart or being completely ignorant, it's that refrain of soldiers 'aren't great at this' or 'this other class does it better/faster/harder/stronger' that actually makes kicking every soldier an efficient decision that's at least partially based on collective intelligence; easier to kick them all than spend time trying to figure out if this underwhelming class you don't play is good at it or now.

              There is very little space where soldiers are optimal or necessary, even if they are exceedingly well built. That isn't to say that soldiers are terrible, it's just that the level of investment and focus you need to be considered a 'decent' one is frankly, rather ridiculous (for a game), considering how much less you can put into practically any other class and be considered the same.

              Honestly, it's not even that soldiers just need a buff but, they also need a niche; something that is uncontestably useful in some area of game play and doesn't mean you have to be well geared AND top 100 in gs to be considered merely 'decent.'
              IGN: Dux • Orionoiro
              UL ID: 2127860702
              Soldier/Mage
              Come quest with me!

              Comment


              • Dengo
                Dengo commented
                Editing a comment
                You got the prize Silver Shovel of The Week, for digging up so deep on a dead topic.

              • Peppermintiger
                Peppermintiger commented
                Editing a comment
                Yeah, I still I miss having fun actually playing this class and would still like to see something done. Crazy, huh?

              #29
              Interesting, I actually disagree with soldiers being weak in pvp
              Due to sb being more powerful than ever, most players are stacking magic nulls in mainslot
              Now if you get these nulls infused to skill lv6 you can up the proc rate of null to 40% per null
              Almost the flip of a coin. While stacking insane amount of defenses to cover your other side.
              You also have access to the most powerful buff in the game called Battle shout
              A soldier with 300k atk with max infused magic null and concentrate opener is very very scary.
              Considering after battle shout you get 390k atk,which is ridiculous you can get those offenses at the beginning of battle.
              Rage slash and counter become os moves
              Very demanding build but not far from reach tbh for every soldier

              Comment


              • Peppermintiger
                Peppermintiger commented
                Editing a comment
                That really sounds like it has less to do with soldiers being strong PvP and more to do with the fact that anyone with 300k in any relevant stat is potentially terrifying. It also highlights what I mean by the level of investment being ridiculous; currently 300k atk is top 25. Not exactly 'not far from reach... for every soldier.'
                Also, I'm curious as to what that FL would look like? A soldier running rage slash, battle shout, and counter seems like it would be a good Colo set but putting in that kinda effort just... to be really good at just Colo(?) seems slightly ludicrous.

              • time13omb
                time13omb commented
                Editing a comment
                Even then with 250k atk with battle shout you could still os glass canon
                But if it is your main class then you try to optimize said class. Also, its not just a colo set but can be used for gb duel colo and quest
                The attack stat should always be gouged with defense if you are playing soldier

              #30
              I've always thought of pallys as strong but after reading this thread I'm starting to understand what you mean by them slowly not being viable or needing that necessary buff. Though I still haven't seen this pally party discrimination tho.
              Thanks for the post btw.

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